tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post1678611272478721010..comments2023-10-08T12:11:52.993+13:00Comments on New Zealand Conservative: Stem cell research ban "superstitious" (updated)Lucia Mariahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-15543296162750921992009-03-13T18:02:00.000+13:002009-03-13T18:02:00.000+13:00You are surely not suggesting a post-modern reader...You are surely not suggesting a post-modern reader-centric method of interpreting blog posts?<BR/><BR/>I know Stephen, he is no more likely to be dishonest about his original position, simply to avoid criticism, than you or I would be.<BR/><BR/>I share your view that his position on abortion is flawed and that there exist very good philosophical arguments to counter it that one need not be a theist to hold to, however, I do not believe that such flaws are justification for standing behind a strawman even if your original position was taken in good faith, which, knowing you, I am sure it was.<BR/><BR/>I'll say no more on it. Stephen is more than capable of fighting his own battles and hopefully he will be able to overcome his technical problems and respond himself.Madeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00377823497040412237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-90211465265767204912009-03-13T17:11:00.000+13:002009-03-13T17:11:00.000+13:00Madeleine,I can see how that interpretation could ...Madeleine,<BR/><BR/>I can see how that interpretation could be taken. Except, it is not clear to me, given that Stephen has allowed you to effectively give him an out, that that is the interpretation that the post should have.<BR/><BR/>And the statement that <I>"While I do not share the view that a foetus is necessarily a human (relevant to the slippery slope argument) ...</I> is very much on par with <A HREF="http://nzconservative.blogspot.com/2009/03/bill-clinton-thinks-embryos-are-not.html" REL="nofollow">Bill Clinton thinking that human embryos are unfertilised</A> and won't become babies until they are fertilised. It just doesn't match up with the fact that a fetus <B>is human</B> and this can be proven, categorically. It is not a view, it is a fact. And to refuse to recognise that fact due to the "slippery slope argument"?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, my comments are not so much directed to you as to him. Putting yourself in the middle is probably not a good idea.Lucia Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-15314900558581297792009-03-13T14:20:00.000+13:002009-03-13T14:20:00.000+13:00Stephen emailed the following and I offered to pos...<I>Stephen emailed the following and I offered to post it as he said he had encountered technical problems when he tried to post it himself.</I><BR/><BR/>Madeleine <BR/><BR/>I'm grateful to you for the comments in NZ Conservative. <BR/><BR/>You have articulated my position precisely. <BR/> <BR/>Plainly when even you misread it at first I am guilty of muddy language and reliance on irony speaking for itself, when it did not. <BR/><BR/>I held (and advanced in Parliament, and to SPUC etc) the same view about state-funded abortion. <BR/><BR/>While I do not share the view that a foetus is necessarily a human (relevant to the slippery slope argument) I think the least those of us who are not outraged by abortion can do in respect to our fellow citizens who feel that abortion is murder, is not apply their tax money to it.<BR/><BR/>To make so many complicit (by paying taxes) in something they feel so intensely about is wrong.<BR/><BR/>I thought a Nuremburg type argument on those grounds should be tried in the courts some day.Madeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00377823497040412237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-34761730504926220252009-03-13T00:45:00.000+13:002009-03-13T00:45:00.000+13:00The way they carry on about embryonic stem cells i...The way they carry on about embryonic stem cells is like no one anywhere has put one red cent into it. Like the cures are just around the corner, we just need to put a few million into it. And if only those bastard conservatives would just get out of the way.<BR/><BR/>2003 - The European Parliament has backed the public funding of research on stem cells extracted from human embryos. The proposal would also allow medical research on human cells cloned using the same technique by which Dolly the cloned sheep was created.<BR/>http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4404-europe-backs-embryonic-stem-cell-research.html<BR/><BR/>And it's cured exactly what again? Well, here's what it's actually doing.<BR/><BR/>2009 - The most sobering: a report from Israel published in PLoS Medicine in late February that shows embryonic stem cells injected into patients can cause disabling if not deadly tumors.<BR/>http://health.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to-heart/2009/03/04/why-embryonic-stem-cells-are-obsolete.html<BR/><BR/>But no, the cure is just around the corner folks, we just don't know when, we must give it at least 500-700 years of constant failure, billions and billions of dollars wasted and damage like the above before one can finally decide that this crap just ain't working folks.MathewKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14385674205383405783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-70396782239920305712009-03-12T14:44:00.000+13:002009-03-12T14:44:00.000+13:00Madeleine,Quite honestly, I gave him the benefit o...Madeleine,<BR/><BR/>Quite honestly, I gave him the benefit of the doubt when I first read his post by reading it several times, going away and thinking about what was said, re-reading it, and then doing the post.<BR/><BR/>True, there is some ambiguity to the post (hence my rereading of it), but the closing paragraph really nails it.<BR/><BR/><I>Superstition’s interferences in New Zealand do not just stop at denying Government funding. Our religious police ban private conduct, which George Bush did not.</I><BR/><BR/>If Stephen would like to respond to all of this himself, that would be incredibly helpful.<BR/><BR/>In the meantime, my post stands.Lucia Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-47558680059417786492009-03-12T14:28:00.000+13:002009-03-12T14:28:00.000+13:00Hi Madeline, not the impression I get. One proble...Hi Madeline, not the impression I get. <BR/><BR/>One problem though is he doesn't between embryonic stem cell research and other types, so it isn't fully clear.<BR/><BR/><EM>I’m glad the ban has been reversed, </EM><BR/><BR/>and then follows up with <EM>though I think that not spending a fervent minority’s tax money on something they believe to be wicked can be a legitimate compromise, as long as the research itself is not banned.</EM><BR/><BR/>He then condemns the "religious police" for wanting to ban private (embryonic?) stem cell research (his closing paragraph)ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-61059987843850064522009-03-12T12:46:00.000+13:002009-03-12T12:46:00.000+13:00I have deleted my previous criticism of Stephen as...I have deleted my previous criticism of Stephen as on re-reading what he wrote I realise that he did not slate all objection to stem cell research as "superstitious" and in fact his post was a criticism of those who do.<BR/><BR/>I suggest Lucyna, that you re-read Stephen's statements and adjust your criticism of it to be perhaps focussed on his support of the policy reversal and not on his use of the term "superstitious" or the treatment of those opposed to embryonic stem cell research.<BR/><BR/>Stephen starts by citing the moral superiority of others who slate all those opposed to embryonic stem cell research as superstitious - a term Stephen puts in scare quotes.<BR/><BR/>He then says he supports the reversal but he thought that Bush's position of restricting public funds was a sensible compromise and was not the example of religous policing that everyone said it was.<BR/><BR/>He also says that if anyone is guilty of superstition triumphing over science it is not those opposed to embryonic stem cell research but those who oppose GE or who support Green policy and Maori legend as to restrict privately funded activities.<BR/><BR/>When he uses the term supersitious applying to these people he does not use scare quotes.<BR/><BR/>Just as we object to being caricatured and having the nuances of our arguments missed, we must be careful to ensure we do not do this to others.Madeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00377823497040412237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-85577282919362411462009-03-12T07:00:00.000+13:002009-03-12T07:00:00.000+13:00I'm not sure we'll ever resolve the tension betwee...I'm not sure we'll ever resolve the tension between knowledge and feeling. This topic sure crystalises that dichotomy.WAKE UPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09136292620916207019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-63677744883912604292009-03-11T14:53:00.000+13:002009-03-11T14:53:00.000+13:00This comment has been removed by the author.Madeleinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00377823497040412237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-24389998899961146272009-03-11T10:24:00.000+13:002009-03-11T10:24:00.000+13:00Yes, SB, you're right...I have no idea about medic...Yes, SB, you're right...<BR/><BR/>I have no idea about medical research at all....none whatsoever...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-19475313052513811902009-03-11T10:17:00.000+13:002009-03-11T10:17:00.000+13:00Heh. You might need to research both those statem...Heh. You might need to research both those statements a little more SB.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-12383503119075010062009-03-11T09:54:00.000+13:002009-03-11T09:54:00.000+13:00Its you Mr.Tips who seem to have only a very eleme...Its you Mr.Tips who seem to have only a very elementary grip on the subject.<BR/><BR/>This is not a OR situation, its not Embryo Cell research OR Adult Stem Cell research its Adult AND Embryo research.<BR/><BR/>I have seen no indication that any research monies are being switched from Adult to Embryo research. Doing one seems to have no effect on doing the other.<BR/><BR/>Also you should read<BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research<BR/><BR/>As you seem not to understand what research is all about.......<BR/><BR/>SbSbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15345861480339318228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-20765828856980798472009-03-11T09:43:00.000+13:002009-03-11T09:43:00.000+13:00FYIhttp://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=9...FYI<BR/><BR/>http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=94147Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-67878189635817743132009-03-11T07:28:00.000+13:002009-03-11T07:28:00.000+13:00SBYou have missed the point.ADULT stem cell resear...SB<BR/>You have missed the point.<BR/><BR/>ADULT stem cell research is <B>already</B> producing results, embryonic has not. In fact there have been horror stories after embryonic stem cell injections in patients (take Winnie Booma who went to China and after a period of apparent relief it all turned to custard horribly).<BR/><BR/>Why no further funding boost for adult stem cells? I'll tell you why: biotech in the states now has serious money and political capital riding on it, so they feel they HAVE to do it.<BR/><BR/>I will make a prediction here: there will be NO serious inroads into clinical disease therapy from embryonic stem cell research in the next 10-15 years. Adult stem cell therapies however will forge ahead, venture capitals will notice, and act accordingly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-10735244479776131162009-03-10T21:32:00.000+13:002009-03-10T21:32:00.000+13:00Re the prisoner analogy, yes perhaps your analogy ...Re the prisoner analogy, yes perhaps your analogy is better. <BR/><BR/>If we could stick in a bit where they were born from the outset to be harvested or used in someway, it might get slightly closer.<BR/><BR/>The sentience thing is a valid point, but equally could philosophically be considered a red herring too. Can't be bothered explaining why right at this moment...it leads to killing babies before they gain self awareness, handling comatose patients etc. You get the drift. <BR/><BR/>Probably safer for me to think about the original proposition and reply with considered text, rather than just lob the ball back and forth. Just trying to be neighbourly. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Re my term pointless. I too agree with your point again. Pointless is the wrong word. I don't know if embryonic stem cell research is or isn't pointless, but there is a good chance the alternatives to using embryos is still just as *likely* to yield the same results, which was my actual point when talking about chopping off possum tails. <BR/><BR/>There are just as *likely* alternatives that require less hacking and animal cruelty. Maybe the fun value cannot be overstated though with such people? He must have got a lot of respect from fat people when he talked about his line of research.<BR/><BR/>"I'm doing this for you", he says. "Aren't they all" she replies.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-2183931713663329592009-03-10T21:09:00.000+13:002009-03-10T21:09:00.000+13:00ZenTiger, how do you know that embryo stem cell re...ZenTiger, how do you know that embryo stem cell research is pointless?<BR/><BR/>I seem to remember that the research that the guy that discovered penicillin(Fleming) turned out to be useless but a side effect resulted in the first antibiotic without which I would not be here to argue with you today.<BR/><BR/>SbSbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15345861480339318228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-1892143425143505282009-03-10T21:06:00.000+13:002009-03-10T21:06:00.000+13:00ZenTiger:We have all these prisoners who are going...ZenTiger:<BR/><BR/><I>We have all these prisoners who are going to the gas chambers. Let's not waste them</I><BR/><BR/>Thats a very poor analogy, a better one would be comparing it to the donor programs.<BR/><BR/>We have all these people that are dying without damaging their organs why not use them to replace failed livers, hearts etc.<BR/><BR/>Well we do. Livers have never been awake, hearts have never decided what to have for dinner, embryos which will be flushed down the sewer or use in a experiment wont either. Prisoners have been awake have decided what to have for dinner etc etc etc.<BR/><BR/>SbSbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15345861480339318228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-41047895584239820632009-03-10T18:59:00.000+13:002009-03-10T18:59:00.000+13:00As for pointless research, I recall a guy who chop...As for pointless research, I recall a guy who chopped the tails off a particular breed of Possum for a longer term goal of the study fat accumulation in humans.<BR/><BR/>It was pointless, cruel, barbaric and his excuse was the same: Just need to keep doing it until I find something. Didn't occur to him at the time that it might be better to pursue a new line of thinking.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-28820969988457910142009-03-10T18:57:00.000+13:002009-03-10T18:57:00.000+13:00SB. Actually, I don't have an opinion on your que...SB. <BR/><BR/>Actually, I don't have an opinion on your question, because I haven't thought about it properly. However, in the spirit of debate:<BR/><BR/>We have all these prisoners who are going to the gas chambers. Let's not waste them, let's run some medical experiments on them first (sedated, with pain killers).ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-60042395785873635402009-03-10T16:52:00.000+13:002009-03-10T16:52:00.000+13:00"I would give Stephen Franks kudos if he can name ..."I would give Stephen Franks kudos if he can name ONE embryonic stem cell clinical trial that has worked."<BR/><BR/>What a strange approach to take, you sound like a man saying no more research is needed as everything that could be learnt has been learnt.<BR/><BR/><I>....name ONE embryonic stem cell clinical trial that has worked.</I><BR/><BR/>The next one. Or the one after that.... Or the one in six months time or next year.<BR/><BR/>We don't know, that's why its called research<BR/><BR/>SbSbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15345861480339318228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-71509608667432934102009-03-10T16:50:00.000+13:002009-03-10T16:50:00.000+13:00ZT: "David and SB, your point presupposes the Cath...ZT: "David and SB, your point presupposes the Catholic Church is in favour of ART such as IVF."<BR/><BR/>I realised that the Catholic Church was against both of those, that was not what I was looking for comments on.<BR/><BR/>My point was that if you have "spare" embryos becoming available through IVF, even if you don't agree with IVF, and the only fate for those embryos is for research or down the drain then why not research.<BR/><BR/>With that question whether you approve of IVF is unimportant because you are already past that point that they are manufactured.<BR/><BR/>So if its choice a) down the drain or option b) used in research which one do you think is correct and why? <BR/><BR/>For my point of view I do not agree with embryos being created just for research but if they are spare and about to be destroyed why not use them?<BR/><BR/><BR/>SbSbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15345861480339318228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-81942827869800947062009-03-10T16:40:00.000+13:002009-03-10T16:40:00.000+13:00Lucyna, I wasn't so much calling upon the authorit...Lucyna, <BR/><BR/>I wasn't so much calling upon the authority of Augustine or Aquinas as trying to make it clear there is a very deep theological tradition that separates beginning of pregnancy from the beginning of humanity. <BR/><BR/>As for your first numbered point<BR/><BR/>Surely what it means to be human is a solely scientific question? Science can tell us at what point a cell becomes a new individual capable of life but it's not life <I>per se</I> that religious conservatives are out to protect or we wouldn't hear all the complaints we do about the movement to grant great apes more rights than they currently enjoy. To make an argument on solely scientific grounds you'd have to define humanity as a particular genetic code (even more Dawkins-ish than Dawkins, and would probably have to include adult stem cells!) or the potential for humanity. Neither of them seem a satisfactory way of approaching the ethical questions surrounding the beginning of life to me. <BR/><BR/>By the by, I also haven't heard much concern from people that the Nats have axed the Bioethics Council, which was set up to advice parliament on what NZers thought about controversial biological issues...David Winterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09704684760112027351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-84737034412211726772009-03-10T16:31:00.000+13:002009-03-10T16:31:00.000+13:00@David: Fantastic news that you consider Aquinas a...@David: Fantastic news that you consider Aquinas an authority on moral teaching, and possibly biology. <BR/><BR/>This could make my life a lot easier in future debates with you :-)<BR/><BR/>He's my patron saint, one I chose after much consideration, and I am currently immersed in his Summa Theologica.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-87815966814389073062009-03-10T16:15:00.000+13:002009-03-10T16:15:00.000+13:00I would give Stephen Franks kudos if he can name O...I would give Stephen Franks kudos if he can name ONE embryonic stem cell clinical trial that has worked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-78623638590952291082009-03-10T15:47:00.000+13:002009-03-10T15:47:00.000+13:00David, if you are going to put yourself in the com...David, <BR/><BR/>if you are going to put yourself in the company of Augustine, Aquinas and a number of Popes, you should realise a couple of things.<BR/><BR/>1) Science has only recently confirmed that human life begins at conception. In ages past, the "when" was pretty much mysterious and open to speculation.<BR/><BR/>2) The Catholic Church, from the beginning, has always distinguished herself from her Pagan neighbours by condemning both contraception and abortion. There was never an arbitrary date set whereby it was permissible to terminate a pregnancy, or prevent one.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, your call to authority of placing yourself in the company of esteemed Catholics is fatally flawed.<BR/><BR/><I>I don't hear many religious conservatives getting up in arms about IVF being paid for by the government (maybe I miss them) but for some reason stem cell research is a hot button issue.</I><BR/><BR/>We're fighting a battle while in retreat. And the money involved in research is pushing embryonic stem cell research into the public spotlight far more. You've got to pick your battles, really.Lucia Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.com