tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post349198475632836009..comments2023-10-08T12:11:52.993+13:00Comments on New Zealand Conservative: It has startedLucia Mariahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-52541990841855298392007-10-31T11:52:00.000+13:002007-10-31T11:52:00.000+13:00Didn't Muldoon actually make a bit of fuss about l...Didn't Muldoon actually make a bit of fuss about leaving or make the transition deliberately difficult ? Something about denying Lange briefings and the such after the election results, if I remember correctly. <BR/><BR/>I don't see how anyone can seriously complain of a totalitarian state, the current government is a little heavy handed and arbitrary in it's political decisions but it's still democratically accountable and bound up by many legal and practical safeguards. <BR/><BR/>It's good that there is debate on the EFB now, I hope that it doesn't and certainly doubt it will survive in it's current form. If it does, one can see that it will be damaging to Labour's political position, especially if instigated shortly before an election when it'll not achieve it's desired effect. Beyond that we've always got the Courts and the Press who will probably come down hard on it too. <BR/><BR/>In general for the EFB though remember that just because a law can only be expressed initially in language of an uncertain scope, does not mean that we should shy from making such laws and attribute to them the most severe meanings possible. <BR/><BR/>Really hate the whole Terrorism determinations thing, might be better in the hands of a High Court Judge as was originally planned.Forensic morselshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01978821372097561683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-81366607484496190392007-10-31T03:28:00.000+13:002007-10-31T03:28:00.000+13:00Possibly the best thread in response to a post I h...Possibly the best thread in response to a post I have read in a long time. The only pity is the the dismal subject matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-53898824487701869232007-10-30T16:12:00.000+13:002007-10-30T16:12:00.000+13:00"Muldoon also formed part of a democratically elec..."Muldoon also formed part of a democratically elected government." Indeed. And as I said, he went quietly and we were left to wonder why we'd indulged in fantasies that he was preparing a totalitarian state. I expect we'll find the same with Clark, when the time comes.<BR/><BR/>Re mandates, this is traditionally the country of the three-year elected dictatorship. None of the buggers has ever had a mandate for half what they get up to.Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-69625122157745072252007-10-30T15:51:00.000+13:002007-10-30T15:51:00.000+13:00Muldoon also formed part of a democratically elect...Muldoon also formed part of a democratically elected government. I don't see how you can say Clark is doing everything democratically (ignoring the poll results of s59 for the moment) when Muldoon wasn't.<BR/><BR/>If anything, the Labour government under Clark just got a lot more sophisticated in how it frames its actions.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-52053480102090784602007-10-30T14:31:00.000+13:002007-10-30T14:31:00.000+13:00PM, your premise assumes that Clarke had a mandate...PM, your premise assumes that Clarke had a mandate for this deep social change.<BR/>Show me the election maifesto that details even a tenth of what these people are trying to do.<BR/>EFB<BR/>s59<BR/>Making Clarke the sole decision maker on who is or is not a terrorist.<BR/>I am sure other bloggers can add to this list.Barnsley Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00404836788413532830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-66377880291936174182007-10-30T14:13:00.000+13:002007-10-30T14:13:00.000+13:00Personally, I think Muldoon's efforts to prevent d...Personally, I think Muldoon's efforts to <I>prevent</I> deep social change were more poisonous than anything Labour have gotten up to. The point being, there's a difference between your democratically-elected govt desiring to bring about deep social change that you personally would rather they didn't, and authoritarians setting up a totalitarian state. I believe Bill's and KG's comments failed to recognise that difference.Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-2036872749391102212007-10-30T12:42:00.000+13:002007-10-30T12:42:00.000+13:00Muldoon cared about money issues, the Labour Gover...Muldoon cared about money issues, the Labour Government cares more about effecting deep social change. The first is more in your face, but generally survivable in the long term. The latter can be far more insidious and destructive in the long term.<BR/><BR/>There is an overlap in consequences (for different reasons), but I don't for a moment underestimate the impact of a Labour/Green/NZF coalition.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-21520008821009578892007-10-30T12:35:00.000+13:002007-10-30T12:35:00.000+13:00I'll tell you what - when we come home to find Hel...I'll tell you what - when we come home to find Helen Clark on every channel announcing a national wage/price freeze of indefinite duration, starting immediately, I'll grant you that the current govt's in Muldoon's league. Right now they're not even close.Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-83376961257324111422007-10-30T07:53:00.000+13:002007-10-30T07:53:00.000+13:00You are drawing a very long bow PM.Banning Tom Sco...You are drawing a very long bow PM.<BR/>Banning Tom Scott from press conferences and trying to introduce a bill as terrifying as the EFB.<BR/>To quote Samuel L Jackson. "There not even in the same fucking ballpark"<BR/>I think you are playing your designated role as curmudgeonly contrarion a bit hard.Barnsley Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00404836788413532830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-66528091944372719212007-10-30T06:32:00.000+13:002007-10-30T06:32:00.000+13:00The fundamental differences between Muldoon's time...The fundamental differences between Muldoon's time and now are that Clark isn't anything like as authoritarian as Muldoon, and the ruling party's power is greatly reduced by MMP - and yet you see this as making totalitarianism more likely now? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't follow.Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-55210514314874636902007-10-30T00:02:00.000+13:002007-10-30T00:02:00.000+13:00I'd have to leave and go to Aussie.By all means, g...<I>I'd have to leave and go to Aussie.</I><BR/>By all means, guys come over here, but if Rudd/Gillard get in in November, you'll be looking at the same thing here. I've got a creepy feeling about Gillard. I think she's lined up to take over from Rudd at some stage and that woman is Attila the Hun. Kind of like your Clark.<BR/>In the meantime, get ready for the narcs to start taking children from non-compliants. As you say, this is just the beginning.Aurorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11509304394298391648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-91288168389953977892007-10-29T21:33:00.000+13:002007-10-29T21:33:00.000+13:00Comparing the muldoon years to the current regime ...Comparing the muldoon years to the current regime has some similarities but some large and fundamental differences.<BR/>We now have MMP where nutjobs hold the balance of power.<BR/>those nutjobs are;<BR/>Anderton. Will always do what he is told by labour<BR/>greens. even more anti freedom than labour<BR/>winston first. would sell his soul for another term at the trough.<BR/>and last but not least the maori supremacist party who will ask a huge price for their support next time around.<BR/>All these groups are the enemy of freedom.Barnsley Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00404836788413532830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-10168852957249552652007-10-29T21:22:00.000+13:002007-10-29T21:22:00.000+13:00That govts spend much of their time enshrining abj...That govts spend much of their time enshrining abject foolishness in law is a given, Zen. On the particular foolishness of Bradford's amendment to S59 we're agreed. <BR/><BR/>BB, when I was a yoof we were much given to similar pronouncements re the approaching totalitarian regime of Muldoon. Certainly Muldoon had an authoritarian streak that shows the current pale Labour imitation up for what it is, but as it happened Muldoon lost an election and left office without a peep. We were left to ponder the discomforting prospect that we were in fact not heroic defenders of freedom against a clear and present danger, merely people with little of real importance to worry about. Don't find yourself in the same spot when Labour leaves office.Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-69588091700636160562007-10-29T20:44:00.000+13:002007-10-29T20:44:00.000+13:00Depends PM. If you were to contrast it against so...Depends PM. If you were to contrast it against some of the more notably deranged statements issued by Sue Bradford and others of the same ilk, then our reactions might actually be seen reasonable in the context of what lies and distortions were made to push through a vastly unpopular bill.<BR/><BR/>But if one needed an excuse to appear a little deranged, then surely the concern we feel over the threat of state enforced persecution of good families might be understandable?<BR/><BR/>I think there is a difference between paranoia and actually understanding the relationship between cause and effect.<BR/><BR/>The boulder has been pushed down the hill. We don't need it to hit us to be paranoid about the potential for it to hit us (or our fellow citizens) as we consider its trajectory.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-57751056954704886422007-10-29T20:23:00.000+13:002007-10-29T20:23:00.000+13:00PM, if you take a single event or action by the Be...PM, if you take a single event or action by the Beast and her party and look at it in isolation then calling other posters comments as paranoid fantasies is a fair comment. <BR/>However when you look at the actions of Jonathon Hunt (or the fat leftie poof as i prefer to call him)and his disciples over the last 30 or so years then you might see a pattern of behaviour that has seriously impacted every person in this country.<BR/>These middle class socialists have followed a path that is leading to a totalitarian state. They have done nothing to enhance or promote personal liberty or freedom and s59 is just a taste of what we can expect when they buy another term next year.Barnsley Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00404836788413532830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-63655828153072084332007-10-29T20:12:00.000+13:002007-10-29T20:12:00.000+13:00Do you suppose the paranoid fantasies indulged in ...Do you suppose the paranoid fantasies indulged in above will help convince the casual reader that anti-S59 people are the voice of reason?Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-26386696219377420312007-10-29T19:52:00.000+13:002007-10-29T19:52:00.000+13:00Clark wouldn't stop people from leaving. She'd ju...Clark wouldn't stop people from leaving. She'd just impose a very large departure tax.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-84117697253119958132007-10-29T18:02:00.000+13:002007-10-29T18:02:00.000+13:00Interestingly, it was just last night that my Kiwi...Interestingly, it was just last night that my Kiwi wife said "I'd better get a nursing job lined up in Oz before Clark brings in a law to stop skilled people leaving".<BR/>Creepy....KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-83083452413463518142007-10-29T17:59:00.000+13:002007-10-29T17:59:00.000+13:00"Unfortunately most people in this country are gre..."Unfortunately most people in this country are greedy selfish fucktards, who will enter the polling booth with a crayon in one hand and their wallet in the other."<BR/>Exactly.<BR/>As for the exit visa thing, I seem to remember that Klark came back from a visit to Oz claiming that passports had to be introduced for trans-tasman travel at the "insistence" of the Oz government.<BR/>Turned out that she had lobbied for it herself and the media went very quiet about Aussie-bashing after that.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-20350742104452634022007-10-29T15:03:00.000+13:002007-10-29T15:03:00.000+13:00Fletch, national have two hopes of forming a govt ...Fletch, national have two hopes of forming a govt after the next election.<BR/>No hope and Bob Hope.<BR/>With the enormous mountain of our money that Cullen will pour down willing kiwi throats and all the legislation that the Beast has carefully steered through (including the soon to be law EFB), and the blatant law breaking carried out with impunity we will see labour scrape in again with the help of the greens and bauble boy.<BR/>The public have clearly demonstrated that the Beast can continue to rule as long as most of the country are getting more than their share in lollies.<BR/>Most people like to believe they will "do the right thing". Unfortunately most people in this country are greedy selfish fucktards, who will enter the polling booth with a crayon in one hand and their wallet in the other.<BR/>NZ is doomed, best get your queensland bolt hole sorted before Clarke brings an exit visa regime to stop people leaving. And I hear you all think "exit visa, surely not Bill?". Think of another way they can stop people leaving that does not veer from the path of their righteous socialist engineering and I will withdraw.Barnsley Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00404836788413532830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-6799546248840444832007-10-29T14:40:00.000+13:002007-10-29T14:40:00.000+13:00Ahah. She really pushed the point that any form o...Ahah. She really pushed the point that any form of smacking is violence. She talked a lot about parents hitting and beating their children. She seems never to have heard of a loving smack; intended to sting a bit, but do no lasting damage. The lady interviewing her said "but it was just a smack" and Sue said "yes, well it's supposed to be illegal" (paraphrased)<BR/><BR/>"Making loving parents criminals is child abuse"Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05656956423924982169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-61603144043079956012007-10-29T14:36:00.000+13:002007-10-29T14:36:00.000+13:00Andy, in that same interview (if the link is to th...Andy, in that same interview (if the link is to the one on Breakfast this morning) she goes on to say that for some reason Kiwi's have this notion that it's OK to hit their children and that any type of hitting is physical abuse.<BR/><BR/>What a load of cobblers.<BR/><BR/>We're going to end up with a nation of teenagers who can't be restrained because they were never disciplined and they will run wild.<BR/><BR/>Sue has no idea what damage she has done to this country - her smacking law *is* child abuse.I.M Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221772173209860714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-74180806596624343332007-10-29T14:32:00.000+13:002007-10-29T14:32:00.000+13:00Bill, I hope that National *is* the new Govt next ...Bill, I hope that National *is* the new Govt next year, but even if National gets more votes than Labour, Labour still has the Progressives, Maori Party, NZ First, and the Greens as possible coalition partners.<BR/><BR/>That is a bit worrying.<BR/><BR/>Is it still a rule that the party with the most votes get the chance to form a Govt first?<BR/><BR/>I hope National wins by a landslide.I.M Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221772173209860714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-31489223534213631062007-10-29T13:10:00.000+13:002007-10-29T13:10:00.000+13:00Oh dear, wake up kiwi's, if you let this go on, li...Oh dear, wake up kiwi's, if you let this go on, like I.M Fletcher said, people won't have children anymore and that will be the start down the road to decline in NZ.MathewKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14385674205383405783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-75223332566223142372007-10-29T12:55:00.000+13:002007-10-29T12:55:00.000+13:00Dead right Zen, and you can hear Sue Bradford sayi...Dead right Zen, and you can hear Sue Bradford saying this here:<BR/><BR/>Interview that TV1 had with Sue Bradford this morning: http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_index_skin/news_index_group It is in the latest news and video section.<BR/><BR/>She says that the increasing number of reports of abuse is a <B>good thing</B><BR/><BR/>Talk about spin-doctoring!Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05656956423924982169noreply@blogger.com