tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post6281758222361376556..comments2023-10-08T12:11:52.993+13:00Comments on New Zealand Conservative: Anything Less Than Law Change UnacceptableLucia Mariahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-6842699825908127742009-08-25T19:39:53.545+12:002009-08-25T19:39:53.545+12:00Calling Graham,come in Graham.......Calling Graham,come in Graham.......Ciaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05007117694321366334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-10175727371363990712009-08-24T09:53:52.520+12:002009-08-24T09:53:52.520+12:00But surprise surprise you are not going to get pro...<em>But surprise surprise you are not going to get prosecuted if you do hit children</em><br /><br />Oh Graham, you sound so disappointed that parents will not be thrown in jail and their kids adopted out to child molesters because little Johnny got a smack for ongoing inappropriate behaviour.<br /><br />I hope your job has nothing to do with child welfare, as your inability to differentiate or understand graduations of force, and the context in which it is applied would see you causing more harm than good to average families.<br /><br />Argue for better education and tools to help parents, sure. You will find little disagreement here.<br /><br />Just keep your hysterical view of smacking out of the law.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-87317239021245916282009-08-24T08:44:30.097+12:002009-08-24T08:44:30.097+12:00Graham Roberts said (before I deleted it for inapp...Graham Roberts said (before I deleted it for inappropriate language):<br /><br />Look its wrong to hit children<br />Just cos you lot can't see it doesn't make it right<br />Ok its WRONG to hit children<br />that's the message<br />Its just plain wrong<br />spin it how you like its just *** wrong<br />But surprise surprise you are not going to get prosecuted if you do hit children<br />But lets hope it makes you think about it<br />Why would anyone want to hit children anyway?<br />There are laws stopping you hitting animals<br />There are laws stopping you hitting adults<br />But you want to continue hitting kids<br />Its **** unbelievable<br />Have you read the foreign press reports?<br />How do you think this makes NZ look to the rest of the world?<br />Larry wants to hit kids with a wooden spoon ffs its disgusting and you should all be ashamed of yourselves<br />You do not NEED to hit kids and if you feel you do .then go seek help...ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-33149733157619670482009-08-24T06:37:49.427+12:002009-08-24T06:37:49.427+12:00Graham, we don't want to HIT our kids, just th...Graham, we don't want to HIT our kids, just the right to administer a light smack, when the situation calls for it. Now, ffs, answer my question please.Ciaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05007117694321366334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-36449951263351847552009-08-24T06:21:36.685+12:002009-08-24T06:21:36.685+12:00Graham, fer cryin out loud, up the meds!Graham, fer cryin out loud, up the meds!KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-13090289840750613062009-08-24T00:22:38.171+12:002009-08-24T00:22:38.171+12:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.graham robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06329883359938415348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-38445513121113010092009-08-23T19:08:46.921+12:002009-08-23T19:08:46.921+12:00Well said kg. This is exactly where the issue is ...Well said kg. This is exactly where the issue is heading.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-18475528292762355122009-08-23T16:05:51.624+12:002009-08-23T16:05:51.624+12:00Have folks seen the Yes vote response to the refer...Have folks seen the Yes vote response to the referendum? I have <a href="http://squaredrive.wordpress.com/2009/08/23/s59-tyrants/" rel="nofollow">posted a response</a> spoofing their response ad. It is quite staggering to see some of the dishonest 'reasoning', and the open call for MPs to ignore an overwhelming electoral outcome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-82274894429655866952009-08-23T10:03:08.562+12:002009-08-23T10:03:08.562+12:00This issue is no longer about smacking children.
I...This issue is no longer about smacking children.<br /><b>It's now about where political power in this country resides</b>--with the people, or with politicians and bureaucrats and academics.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-50398509980941254962009-08-23T09:37:48.000+12:002009-08-23T09:37:48.000+12:00graham, and has violence against children gone dow...graham, and has violence against children gone down in any of those countries? I know that in Sweden there are more reports of violence between children now and children against parents.<br /><br />Interesting to see that not a lot of the main countries like the US, England, Australia, India, France, South Africa have banned it.I.M Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221772173209860714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-87551420979754408812009-08-23T07:46:28.366+12:002009-08-23T07:46:28.366+12:00Graham,
if you didn't bother voting, what the...Graham,<br /><br />if you didn't bother voting, what the heck are you doing standing up for this? You obviously have contempt for the democratic process.<br /><br />Further, I'll spend up to 200K on each of my children during their lifetime. I utterly resent the fact that this law allows some faceless nameless official into my home that has never and will never spend a cent on them, yet they are allowed to tell me how I have to raise them.<br /><br />Do you even have kids Graham? If so, why do you think your way of raising them is so much better than mine that you have the right to force your approach onto me? Quite frankly, your arrogance is breath taking.Bogusnewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16782667098606630332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-3016709537271346532009-08-23T07:41:00.495+12:002009-08-23T07:41:00.495+12:00"shame as 9 mil is a shit lot of money to was..."shame as 9 mil is a shit lot of money to waste"<br /><br />1: with a 54% turnout, it's a success (for a cir) <br />2:Understand, that $9mill should come out of Clark's pocket, no-one else's.<br /><br />Please answer this question: why don't you trust a jury to decide what is abuse?.Ciaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05007117694321366334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-4487270740304988662009-08-23T01:54:44.606+12:002009-08-23T01:54:44.606+12:00Why don't you ban all driving to stop dangerou...Why don't you ban all driving to stop dangerous drivers?<br /><br />Why don't you ban all disagreements so they do not escalate into violent arguments?<br /><br />Why don't you ban sodomy?<br /><br />All of which have no relevance whatsoever <br /><br />It ok though you carry on smacking if you must But please don't use kitchen implements as Larry Baldrick is proposing, that's not a good look .. trust megraham robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06329883359938415348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-75760107642763268052009-08-23T01:49:38.552+12:002009-08-23T01:49:38.552+12:00So the law is not going to change and you will car...So the law is not going to change and you will carry on smacking and not one of you will get arrested<br />Surely if you are going to get the country to spend 9 mil<br />you should ask a straight question.<br />and yes I know you all think that the question was fine<br />but the point a lot of people think that it wasn't and so diluted your point<br />shame as 9 mil is a shit lot of money to waste<br />The law is here to stay I would get used to it if I was you<br />There are plenty of other much more important issues to get wound up aboutgraham robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06329883359938415348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-39280816451073911542009-08-23T01:40:57.934+12:002009-08-23T01:40:57.934+12:00Thought this was interesting hat tip cheeky(standa...Thought this was interesting hat tip cheeky(standard)<br /><br />Corporal punishment in the home:<br /><br />* Austria – illegal since 1989<br />* Bulgaria – illegal since 2000<br />* Croatia – illegal since 1999<br />* Costa Rica – illegal since 2008<br />* Cyprus – illegal since 1994<br />* Denmark – illegal since 1997<br />* Finland – illegal since 1983<br />* Germany – illegal since 2000<br />* Greece – illegal since 2007<br />* Hungary – illegal since 2004<br />* Iceland – illegal since 2003<br />* Israel – illegal since 2000<br />* Latvia – illegal since 1998<br />* Moldova – illegal since 2009<br />* Netherlands – illegal since 2007<br />* Norway – illegal since 1987<br />* Portugal – illegal since 2007<br />* Romania – illegal since 2004<br />* Sweden – illegal since 1979.<br />* Spain – illegal since 2007<br />* Ukraine – illegal since 2004<br />* Uruguay – illegal since 2007<br />* Venezuela – illegal since 2007graham robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06329883359938415348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-75084822164224139992009-08-23T01:05:15.145+12:002009-08-23T01:05:15.145+12:00Good CIR result - no confusion about what Key must...Good CIR result - no confusion about what Key must do. Change the law.<br /><br />I prefer the old S59 most of all, but if that is ruled out, I then favour Larry Baldock's suggestion of tweaking Bradfords S59 by repealing the correction clauses - clause 2 & 3. That would allow smacking without saying how smacking should be done, but limit prevention & correction to the 4 reasons given. This would legally curtail child abusers a bit (those that beat with concrete and sticks, etc).<br /><br />But most of all, this S59 issue is about democracy. It seems clear now that we should be changing our Parliamentary system - MPs are far too prone to ignoring the public will. <br /><br />I favour shifting to STV electorates only (no MMP or party vote), with recall referenda for each electorate to hold MPs acountable to their community. Top it off by making CIR binding. That should do it for a start - let's see 'em ignore us then ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-33743064009415490192009-08-22T22:07:49.238+12:002009-08-22T22:07:49.238+12:00Also, I think that the phrasing of the referendum ...Also, I think that the phrasing of the referendum question is largely irrelevant. The debate over smacking has been going on now for at least two years, and I don't think that there would have been anyone in New Zealand who didn't know exactly what it was about and what they were being asked.I.M Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221772173209860714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-40193581371831250422009-08-22T18:13:13.262+12:002009-08-22T18:13:13.262+12:00The above link didn't work, so here it is agai...The above link didn't work, so here it is again.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.thestandard.org.nz/referendum-results/" rel="nofollow">The Standard Spin on the Results</a>ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-42798211245767551112009-08-22T18:09:33.482+12:002009-08-22T18:09:33.482+12:00From the fellows at the Standard comes the ultimat...From the fellows at the Standard comes the ultimate in disconnection<br />from reality <br /><br /><a href="Referendum%20results" rel="nofollow">Referendum results</a><br /><br /><i> Unfortunately that tells us nothing about whether New Zealanders want to repeal the law.</i>Andreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04536593172412406428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-47965824520483290572009-08-22T18:02:54.140+12:002009-08-22T18:02:54.140+12:00Graham, you are way off point.
The law bans smack...Graham, you are way off point.<br /><br />The law bans smacking, the referendum indicates smacking shouldn't be banned. You want to end child abuse, this isn't the way to do it. <br /><br />Why don't you ban all driving to stop dangerous drivers? <br /><br />Why don't you ban all disagreements so they do not escalate into violent arguments?<br /><br />Why don't you ban sodomy?<br /><br />The fact that *real* child abuse is ongoing, that this law has made no impact on that, and that children who are disciplined in a loving family grow up fine is enough reason.<br /><br />Furthermore, everything you say has been rebutted many times, in the many posts on this blog and others. Use our tags. <br /><br />And note the people arguing to reverse the law were not arguing to enforce their child-rearing values on you. They were not arguing to discourage positive parenting and enshrine in the law all parents shall now smack in discipline to raise productive members of society. It was the anti-smackers making the value judgment that it is better to make everyone who smacks technically guilty, and ask the state to decide how hard they push the issue.<br /><br />The anti-smackers are therefore also guilty of intolerance. Yet the Greens pretend to preach tolerance. Actually, it's "tolerate anything we want, and ban everything else", hence anti-smacking. Even Sue Bradford admitted she wasn't actually trying to reduce child abuse, she just wants smacking banned.<br /><br />Which is ultimately why the referendum needs to be respected. <br /><br />We debated. It was evident that your "side" would not tolerate any accommodation, so over 300,000 people exercised their democratic right to ask for a referendum. <br /><br />Clark tried to derail it, and weakened the result by not holding it at the election. Key tried to derail it by saying he would ignore the result.<br /><br />The Greens tried to confuse the issue by not acknowledging that the essence of the question speaks directly to the law as it now stands, not the empty promises of how it will be applied. <br /><br />The referendum went ahead and the result was solid.<br /><br />Respect democracy.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-66669563598106447182009-08-22T17:14:49.841+12:002009-08-22T17:14:49.841+12:00graham, the clerk of the house already made some c...graham, the clerk of the house already made some changes before the question went out. It was thought to be quite clear. Also the phrase about "good parental correction" was taken straight from the law itself (as I understand from watching the Bradford debate on Triangle TV last night).<br /><br />You are trying to make a tangle of a one line question that is quite easily understood. Sometimes a thing can be analyzed too muchI.M Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221772173209860714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-25315244812145581362009-08-22T17:11:27.406+12:002009-08-22T17:11:27.406+12:00"How many people have been prosecuted for sma..."How many people have been prosecuted for smacking the kids since the law was introduced ?"<br /> Not the point. You're a real deep thinker, aren't you?<br />Have you ever considered the effects of non-objective laws and the dangers of leaving prosecution to the 'discretion' of the police?<br />The effect of such laws is to hem people in with a myriad of vague restrictions, regulations and laws to the point where the ordinary, decent citizens no longer know whether they're breaking a law or a regulation as they go about their normal daily business.<br />This gives the State and unelected bureaucrats enormous discretionary power over us all and produces a Stasi-like mentality where people are happy to inform on their neighbours for all kinds of motives.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-21716201589291058342009-08-22T17:10:34.673+12:002009-08-22T17:10:34.673+12:00At the end of the day, I have to say that it is Su...At the end of the day, I have to say that it is Sue Bradford that has a problem. If she believes that a smack on the hand is "violence against children" then she has a problem. If she believes that 88% of this country have just voted for "violence against children" then she has a problem. Does she really think that 88% want the ability to be violent toward their kids?<br /><br />If not, then there must be something wrong with her thinking: she needs counseling or some other kind of help. I don't say this in order to be mean, but it is the truth. Perhaps it is a guilt complex engendered in the raising of her own kids that she is now foisting upon the whole country - I do not know; but something is not right there.I.M Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221772173209860714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-62306179618446554372009-08-22T17:04:56.933+12:002009-08-22T17:04:56.933+12:00IMF
The referendum result means sweet FA
I didn&#...IMF <br />The referendum result means sweet FA<br />I didn't bother voting <br />Now if the question were<br /> * Should children be entitled to the same protection from physical assaults as everyone else enjoys?<br />or<br /> * Should the law allow parents and carers to hit or smack children when they misbehave?<br />Then i would have taken part<br />but<br />The word ‘good’ before ‘parental correction’ makes a value judgment which predetermines the answer. People answering the question will be drawn to answer ‘no’ on the basis that what is ‘good’ cannot be ‘bad’ (that is, criminal). It would be absurd to answer ‘yes’ because it would saying that an action which is good should be a criminal offence.<br />The term ‘parental correction’ is confusing in the context of the question. Because ‘force by way of correction’ was used in the old s59, it is often used as meaning ‘correction by the use of force’ or physical punishment. To speak of a ’smack as part of parental correction’ is repetitious and circular.graham robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06329883359938415348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-4724485892774030732009-08-22T17:01:20.034+12:002009-08-22T17:01:20.034+12:00At the end of the day, what the "yes" bl...At the end of the day, what the "yes" bloc are saying is that they don't trust 12 adults to make the right decision, having seen ALL THE FACTS.Ciaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05007117694321366334noreply@blogger.com