tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post7038145536435668751..comments2023-10-08T12:11:52.993+13:00Comments on New Zealand Conservative: The Effects of divorce and a book reviewLucia Mariahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-15988807508056130572008-10-28T21:32:00.000+13:002008-10-28T21:32:00.000+13:00Again, there’s an elephant in the room and it’s ab...Again, there’s an elephant in the room and it’s about to take a dump! Labouring the point….the more Christian a country is the more likely they are likely to suffer social ills like divorce, murder, abortion etc on an ‘apples versus apples’ basis (even with demographics, incomes taken into account) If you think the most densely occupied Christian nations on the planet are shining beacons for us to follow – may your God help you and good luck wandering the streets of Monterrey, Crompton or Sao Paulo after dark! I repeat my proposition that the best bet is we seek the answers, what ever they are, from countries that suffer lower rates of these ills, to see what they do and we don’t. Japan is one example. I’m not a sociologist by the way so not able to answer what is and isn’t an ideal environment for kids, other than saying it involves someone who loves them. End of my contribution. Good speaking to you. Bye for now. Paul.Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-19793846962558934192008-10-28T15:44:00.000+13:002008-10-28T15:44:00.000+13:00And again, more to the point of the post:Do you th...And again, more to the point of the post:<BR/><BR/>Do you think children are generally better off being raised in a traditional family, by both of their natural parents in the same house, or do your think being a child of divorce is not necessarily a big issue?ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-29438985095639669512008-10-28T14:40:00.000+13:002008-10-28T14:40:00.000+13:00Paul,Ah, I see, now that you've lost of the major ...Paul,<BR/><BR/>Ah, I see, now that you've lost of the major point you thought you were making, you've changed the argument.<BR/><BR/>Forget all the other countries for now (Mexico is not 99% RC, btw), and let's look at NZ.<BR/><BR/>Compare out murder and crime rates 50 years ago when we were still predominantly a Christian country to today, when those who self-identify as Christians have fallen dramatically. Notice the correlation?Lucia Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-63164432095703304112008-10-28T13:20:00.000+13:002008-10-28T13:20:00.000+13:00By the way, no offence taken with the mad comment....By the way, no offence taken with the mad comment. My long-suffering wife calls me that so often, it's water off a ducks back there Z.T!Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-53912644332069748462008-10-28T13:17:00.000+13:002008-10-28T13:17:00.000+13:00Z.T,it is commonly held falacy that religion makes...Z.T,it is commonly held falacy that religion makes people more compassionate and moral etc,and all I am doing is proving the fact. <BR/><BR/>The results of a study by G.S Paul into rates of abortion/crime and other social ills, through-out 17WESTERN Countries (N.Z was included by the way) proved yet again the greater number of non-theists = lower the rates. <BR/><BR/>This has nothing to do with wealth. <BR/><BR/>Religious Western Societies tend to have higher rates of abortion, murder, crime, teen pregnancies etc than secular ones. Exception to this rule is suicide. <BR/><BR/>If you wanted to look at poorer nations 'apples versus apples' you'll reach the same conclusion.<BR/><BR/>With 99% of the population being Catholic, Mexico should surely be a safe country, and it's average income is USD 11,000 per adult which is close to three times that of an ungodly Vietnamese. Why is it Mexico's murder rate is 5 times as great? It's rape statistics 10 times more? It can't be anything to do with wealth. <BR/><BR/>Kindly stop continuing to ignore the elephant in the room.<BR/><BR/>Cheers.<BR/><BR/>Paul (who has to get back to work)Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-61019332157834609152008-10-28T13:04:00.000+13:002008-10-28T13:04:00.000+13:00My apologies Paul. It was rude of me to suggest y...My apologies Paul. It was rude of me to suggest you are clearly mad. Please allow me to rephrase that line to "I really don't follow you here".ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-10455058588018143052008-10-28T11:43:00.000+13:002008-10-28T11:43:00.000+13:00You have very strange thought processes Paul. I d...You have very strange thought processes Paul. I don't think you prove what you try to infer at all.<BR/><BR/>Do you think Russia and Chinese Christians reflect the culture of the nation? Do you know how much these groups were (probably still are) persecuted.<BR/><BR/>Next you'll be wondering why Christians in Syria or even India have cause for complaint!<BR/><BR/>The issue is equally the slow destruction of Christian values in liberal society, and your list may be different in 30 years. We can either support the values that assisted democracy and the sharing of wealth (which is a mixture of Christianity, capitalism and democracy) or we can watch it wither away and wonder why society seems to be going downhill.<BR/><BR/>You are clearly blaming Christianity for Mexico and Atheism for Sweden's success. You are clearly mad. However, I am open minded, and am most interested to see how you prove this assertion.<BR/><BR/>Please continue.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-60376794117078343492008-10-28T11:32:00.000+13:002008-10-28T11:32:00.000+13:00O.K then smarty, a more obvious choice for a defen...O.K then smarty, a more obvious choice for a defender of the faith, would have been Vatican City if you want to play semantics.<BR/><BR/>Here is the list of the five largest Christian Nations, based on population first/percentages second:<BR/> <BR/>1 USA 224,457,000 85%<BR/>2 Brazil 139,000,000 93%<BR/>3 Mexico 86,120,000 99%<BR/>4 Russia 80,000,000 60%<BR/>5 China 70,000,000 5.7%<BR/><BR/>Here’s the same list for those horrible old ‘liberal’ Atheists: <BR/><BR/>1.) Sweden 8,986,000 46 - 85% 4,133,560 - 7,638,100<BR/>2.) Vietnam 82,690,000 81% 66,978,900<BR/>3.) Denmark 5,413,000 43 - 80% 2,327,590 - 4,330,400<BR/>4.) Norway 4,575,000 31 - 72% 1,418,250 - 3,294,000<BR/>5.) Japan 127,333,000 64 - 65% <BR/><BR/>So you tell me Lucyna, which countries are better places to live on average, given a choice and social measuring sticks like health/education etc?<BR/>Which streets would you rather roam at night? Which countries treat their citizens with respect and care? Which countries would you rather bring your own children up in? Why is it Mexico (99% Catholic) is a crime-ridden third-world sh*t-hole whilst that ‘moral vacuum’ Sweden is a country renown for its cleanliness, education & wealth?Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-46365018454328511072008-10-25T10:41:00.000+13:002008-10-25T10:41:00.000+13:00I agree. So of the 100% self identifying as Catho...I agree. So of the 100% self identifying as Catholic, 35% are probably Catholic in name only, and another unknown amount who do not attend Church according to the required weekly obligation likely fall into that category.<BR/><BR/>So the statistics are incorrect from the very start.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-76070311898788822402008-10-24T22:59:00.000+13:002008-10-24T22:59:00.000+13:00Here we go: 65% of American Catholics are practici...Here we go: 65% of American Catholics are practicing (defined as attending church at least once a month - I find this definition incredible as we are supposed to go every Sunday on pain of mortal sin, but there ya go). Non-practicing are also very different in their views on a range of social issues.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://ncrcafe.org/node/2194" REL="nofollow">Poll finds practicing, non-practicing Catholics in America are worlds apart</A>Lucia Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-16639648736571670892008-10-24T17:28:00.000+13:002008-10-24T17:28:00.000+13:00My suggestion is to forget so-called Christian val...<EM>My suggestion is to forget so-called Christian values altogether when it comes to divorce.</EM><BR/><BR/>Well, that is exactly what has happened Paul.<BR/><BR/>And given the wide variety of Christian types, including a huge number that self-identify as Christian but are barely that, I think we can see western society is not only trying to forgot Christian values as quickly as possible, but lumping in rather diverse groups that themselves have moved away from Catholicism to get the kind of results you love to point out, but ultimately, don't really prove your point, it just underscores how far every thing has slipped.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-73142034867748135712008-10-24T15:53:00.000+13:002008-10-24T15:53:00.000+13:00Paul, which country do you consider the "most Chri...Paul, <BR/><BR/>which country do you consider the "most Christian Country in the World"? I'm guessing that it's the United States than you are referring to?<BR/><BR/>I would consider Poland to be far more Christian than the US, and a quick search confirms that.<BR/><BR/>Poland 89% Roman Catholic (75% practising), had divorce stats for the year 2000 of 43,000 divorces for a population of 38,644,000.<BR/><BR/>The US 52% Protestant, 24% Roman Catholic (practising figures are low, I'll find them later), 2% Mormon had 22 times more divorces for that year (957,000) for a population only 7 times larger.<BR/><BR/>A quick look at the divorce rate for Japan shows that their rate of 2.3 divorces per 1,000 in 2002 is higher than Poland's 1.1 divorces per 1,000 in 2000.<BR/><BR/>Given all of that, I would say that practising Roman Catholicism is far more conducive to stable marriages than just Christianity due to Catholicism's non-recognition of any marriage other than the first. In other words, the deal is you are in it for life. That's RC only.Lucia Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-50517881050776568472008-10-24T13:55:00.000+13:002008-10-24T13:55:00.000+13:00The only person I’ve heard espouse the virtues of ...The only person I’ve heard espouse the virtues of income splitting is Peter ‘invisible between elections’ Dunne. I’m unable however to make in correlation between a tax policy & lowering marriage break-ups though? My suggestion is to forget so-called Christian values altogether when it comes to divorce. After-all the most Christian Country in the World’s tops the ‘Divorce League’ so the last thing we want is to follow their appalling example. Better we learn from atheistic countries like Japan, who have amongst the lowest rates in the Western World, how they keep marriages/families together.Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-41661279826900575242008-10-24T11:47:00.000+13:002008-10-24T11:47:00.000+13:00Income SplittingIncome SplittingZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-39491141044310439802008-10-24T06:32:00.000+13:002008-10-24T06:32:00.000+13:00Sure Lucyna, it's easy highlighting a problem,...Sure Lucyna, it's easy highlighting a problem, harder finding a solution.Family First could have commissioned research on a whole raft of social ills which would have shown similar negative economic effect = state the bleeding obvious.But what they don't do is give us a solution to the problem, except possibly pointing to changes in the number of married -vrs- defacto's as a reason(?)Historically F.F are into the mandatory banning of anything that's sunful in their eyes - so I'm presuming they'll scrap any form of partnership that doesn't involve a church & a ordained minister? You tell me, I'm not on speaking terms with them. Cheers. Paul.Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-26652054119513607992008-10-23T18:33:00.000+13:002008-10-23T18:33:00.000+13:00Paul, why do you want a Family First policy? We d...Paul, why do you want a Family First policy? We don't speak for them. But, I could give you my own ideas for reducing divorce, if you like.Lucia Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10485990994973953860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-2108905469286084042008-10-23T12:26:00.000+13:002008-10-23T12:26:00.000+13:00O.K then Tiger, name me one Family First policy th...O.K then Tiger, name me one Family First policy that will reduce the over-all rate of divorce in New Zealand? Compulsory religious studies? Mandatory Church attendance by all able-bodied Kiwi's? Just one policy from Family First would be nice. This isn't rocket-science (your words not mine)Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-68004390057773197172008-10-22T14:03:00.000+13:002008-10-22T14:03:00.000+13:00"I'm sure we could list many that we agree upon - ...<I>"I'm sure we could list many that we agree upon - it's not rocket science here" </I><BR/><BR/>I would say its much harder than rocket science. <BR/><BR/>I think you would find it incredible hard to get a room full of people to agree on even a short list of 5 items for example.<BR/><BR/>That's one of the problems people don't agree.<BR/><BR/>My short list!<BR/><BR/>1)Giving women the vote<BR/>2)Equal pay<BR/>3)The Pill<BR/>4)Unrealistic expectations of marriage<BR/>5) Cheap food. <BR/><BR/>No I am not joking think about each one!<BR/><BR/>SbSbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15345861480339318228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-61448753019140782012008-10-22T11:38:00.000+13:002008-10-22T11:38:00.000+13:00Our society is our own backyard, and our front yar...Our society is our own backyard, and our front yard for that matter. Clean up society, and the yard we play in is much safer and healthier for us all.<BR/><BR/>This discussion should not be about who is taking the higher moral ground or not. Indeed, that just diverts us away from the real issue at hand.<BR/><BR/>In any event, all we have done is bandy about statistics. Do you have proof that the divorce rates with children in Family First are higher than the national average? Maybe they have tidied up their own back yard.<BR/><BR/>You seem to agree intact families are a good thing, and this post presents evidence that broken families have serious repercussions, more profound than many seem to realise.<BR/><BR/>So there is the issue. Broken families. Whatever policies help keep families together are to be encouraged.<BR/><BR/>What are the causes? I'm sure we could list many that we agree upon - it's not rocket science here. <BR/><BR/>Some of the fundamental causes must surely be lack of preparation for marriage, a growing expectation that if marriage doesn't work out rather than try harder, you divorce and try with some else. Once children come into the equation, this is extremely destructive.<BR/><BR/>The referenced book in the post also points out how divorce is more common when the parents themselves have been children of divorce. <BR/><BR/>Society has become more liberal, and there is definitely a link between acceptance of solo parenting, no-fault divorce, both parents working and leaving child care in the hands of strangers, and the radical feminist movement.<BR/><BR/>As a society our values on the importance of marriage has changed, and it is leaving a trail of destruction.<BR/><BR/>What do you think the causes are?ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-82929840118118961232008-10-22T11:07:00.000+13:002008-10-22T11:07:00.000+13:00Yep, same company, different survey year, broadly ...Yep, same company, different survey year, broadly the same results (atheists score better over-all that fire-brand Christians in the divorce stakes & this comes from a fundamentalist group) I am not being dismissive of the effects of divorce there Tiger, but research of this kind under-taken by Family First, does nothing to establish ‘who it is that is getting divorced?’ and ‘why?. Only then can you address the problem. I am merely highlighting Christian Lobby groups have no moral high-ground in respect to marriage/family break-ups. Family First should be tidying their own back yard up first, in relationship (not a good turn of phrase here!) to divorce, before pointing their righteous finger at the liberalism in secular society as some sort of cause to these figures. See ya. Paul.Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-49937535010757822722008-10-22T08:03:00.000+13:002008-10-22T08:03:00.000+13:00Sometimes, just sometimes, I wish I was a xtian,an...Sometimes, just sometimes, I wish I was a xtian,and this is one of those times.<BR/><BR/><I>I therefore find myself wondering how many of those people are actually devout?</I><BR/><BR/>When members of my team let the team down, I just deny they're part of the team. I think that began about 200 years ago.<BR/><BR/><I>And again, no surprises that we are all capable of falling.</I><BR/><BR/>That's right, its not <B>my</B> its because the world is fallen and so am I.<BR/><BR/>Gee, being a xtian makes life so much easier than being a humanist and accepting it just might be me.fugleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02817502130957723527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-18311724905864215062008-10-21T18:47:00.000+13:002008-10-21T18:47:00.000+13:00PS: I should also make it clear that I am not tryi...PS: I should also make it clear that I am not trying to justify or excuse the high statistics of failed Christian marriages.<BR/><BR/>I agree that Christians need to lead the pack, and demonstrate the 'walk the talk', which I think would inspire others.<BR/><BR/>I therefore find myself wondering how many of those people are actually devout? And again, no surprises that we are all capable of falling.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-83154148227553404722008-10-21T18:30:00.000+13:002008-10-21T18:30:00.000+13:00Thanks Paul. I looked at a 2008 survey from that ...Thanks Paul. <BR/><BR/>I looked at a <A HREF="http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=295" REL="nofollow">2008 survey from that group</A>, and it has different figures. <BR/><BR/>When I get a chance I'll look at the entire report and comment further.<BR/><BR/>In the meantime, here's what I saw:<BR/><BR/>* 22% of adults have never married. See my earlier point about stats for broken families from de facto couples. <BR/><BR/>* The National Average for divorce was 33%<BR/><BR/>*Catholics at 28% were below the national average.<BR/><BR/>* Conservatives at 28% were below the National average.<BR/><BR/>* Liberals at 37% were above the national average.<BR/><BR/>* Those associated with a non christian faith were at 38%.<BR/><BR/>* Declared Atheists and Agnostics were higher than Catholics and Conservatives, but only slightly, at 30%.<BR/><BR/><BR/>So based on those figures I don't think it worth getting into snide "walk the talk" slurs. <BR/><BR/>That isn't the point of the post in any event. The point is not just about divorce, but divorces where children are involved, and the damage it does.<BR/><BR/>Just because I say that the Christian ideal is one marriage, with fidelity doesn't mean I don't understand that no person is perfect, and we all make mistakes.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes its not about if we fail, it's about setting the goal and striving for it, and in spite of all our character flaws, aiming high instead of low generally yields better results.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, the thrust of the post was also to explain that the damage done to children of divorce is quite profound. I wonder in those statistics above how many divorces involving children are from parents that themselves were children of divorce?<BR/><BR/>The main thing I'm saying is that society as a whole, as well as individuals would be better off if more families stayed together, which would involve a sea change in understanding the importance of marriage, as well as being better prepared for marriage.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-8760014302467736072008-10-21T18:00:00.000+13:002008-10-21T18:00:00.000+13:00I'll do better than that Mr Tiger here's the figur...I'll do better than that Mr Tiger here's the figures:<BR/><BR/>11% of all American adults are currently divorced<BR/>25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce<BR/><BR/>27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce<BR/>24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced<BR/><BR/><BR/>21% of atheists have been divorced<BR/>21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced<BR/>24% of Mormons have been divorced<BR/>25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced<BR/>29% of Baptists have been divorced<BR/>24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced<BR/><BR/>Naturally there's more to it, broken down into demographics, states, race etc - but you get the picture. <BR/><BR/>Now before you ask Doubting Thomas's, the Survey was done by The Barna Research Group in California, who are themselves an evangelical Christian organisation! <BR/><BR/>So there's not atheist consiracy here, this survey company works on behalf of U.S Christians doing research into how they behave, vote etc. <BR/><BR/>It would be interesting to see what Family First make of this and tell us - why do Atheists marriages mostly last longer than Christian ones? <BR/><BR/>I repeat it's easy 'talking the talk'.<BR/><BR/>Cheers.<BR/><BR/>Paul. <BR/><BR/>PS: I got it wrong on The Jews, by the way. They were way up there!Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38893560.post-27068203263875067572008-10-21T14:53:00.000+13:002008-10-21T14:53:00.000+13:00Mr Atheist, I'd be interested in the link; you nev...Mr Atheist, I'd be interested in the link; you never know, maybe this research was also selective?<BR/><BR/>I also suspect many more people that would divorce, if they were married, never bother marrying and simply split up as de facto couples. You might find those unmarried cohabiting couples are non-practicing Christians.<BR/><BR/>We also might discover that many people that identify as Christian, are in name only.<BR/><BR/>As for evangelical fundamentalists, they are indeed in a category of their own :-)ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.com