This morning on the TV news they had clips of Helen Clark from an interview she did on BBC World News trying to defend her stance on the Free Trade Deal she is soon to sign with China.
She says -
"I'm conscious that in my lifetime China will be the world's biggest economy. It will be a super power and it's important to me that we get on the best terms we can with that large and powerful country."
OK, well, getting on good terms is one thing but I'm not sure whether because a country will be a super power is a good enough reason to sign up to a free trade deal with them. Would we sign up with Iraq if it turned out they were going to be a super power? Or Afghanistan? It's unlikely that Iraq or Afghanistan will become super powers, but I'm just trying to make a point here. If the world were to become unstable with a conflict developing and battle lines drawn then with whom would we be allied? Communist China? It's worth thinking about.
The PM joked that New Zealand would never narrow its world outlook and said if New Zealand was only to trade with countries which it agreed with "we would be down to Ireland, Switzerland and Scandanavian economies".
I think it's one thing to trade with people we don't agree with - all countries have to do that, but it's not just the political ramifications we have to consider it's the moral as well. Shouldn't morality should be one of the considerations that come into any decision-making a leader does? I know we have to try to do what is best for our country economically, but this has to be tempered with empathy for those affected by our actions; in this case, largely Tibet. It might make us slightly better off economically, but what is the cost?
I think we're going to have cause to regret signing this deal in the not-to-distant-future. Is the tainting of our country's reputation worth the 30 pieces of silver?
I've mixed feelings about a China FTA, but on the whole I agree with it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I'm much more interested in the PMs comments. Ireland, Switzerland and the Scandinavians? She could hardly have picked Western countries of even less trade importance to us compared to Japan, Korea, US, UK, Oz.. it's frightening to think our Govt is so out of step with out traditional allies and trade partners on other world affairs.
It's also slightly repugnant she chose countries that were either neutral or occupied by Nazi Germany in WW2.
JC
..."I for one welcome our new Chinese Overlords"...
ReplyDeleteEXOCET
China will be using the FTA negotiations as a test case, before they attempt to negotiate trade deals with other Western countries. As well as an opportunity to learn which approaches work and which don't, they will also be observing to see how hard they can push in terms of the One China policy, criticism of Tibet and other sensitive topics. How much can they demand before things begin to get awkward for them? And how hard will we try to please them? I'd like to think New Zealand has set the bar relatively high, but I'm not optimistic.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I don't like about it are the boundary clauses where Chinese can freely come over here and work. I've nothing against them personally, but a guy from the Unions was on TV the other day saying that we may get heaps of immigrant Chinese labour over here working for minimum wage.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as I said, what if there is conflict in the world? Say China and America became enemies, who would we side with? The US, or Communist China? I know Helen is a fan of communism and in doing this she is going to make very strong ties between us and a Communist country.
It just feels really wrong.
Of course, the immigration clauses were intended for middle-class and upper-class managers and business people to be able to move freely between NZ and China, without the hassle of the nasty border controls the masses have to go through, like visas to prevent criminals entering NZ...
ReplyDeleteBut on the main post point - just try substituting some other well known 'major world powers' in place of 'China' to see how immoral Helen Clark's views really are.
"I'm conscious that in my lifetime 'Nazi Germany' will be [one of] the world's biggest economies. It will be a super power and it's important to me that we get on the best terms we can with that large and powerful country."
Hmmm - that's how bad her comment really is. Throwing any moral considerations out and thinking only of the money for her corporate mates... Lovely :(
Why do people always refer to Nazis as the benchmark for this kind of thing? The history of the Chinese Communist Party makes Hitler and his pals look like an episode of Barney.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, it's worth noting that the rest of the world did trade with and maintain cordial relations with the Third Reich up until WW2, including attending their Olympic Games. Clark's right - not trading with regimes you don't like only hurts you, unless everyone else is also refusing to trade with them.
I.M. Fletcher: are you seriously suggesting we might back the commos in a future war because we have a FTA with them? I sincerely hope that was tongue in cheek...
Clark's right - not trading with regimes you don't like only hurts you, unless everyone else is also refusing to trade with them.
ReplyDeleteActually, trading with regimes you don't like only hurts you. Make Russia, China and Germany rich enough then sit back and be ravaged.
re you seriously suggesting we might back the commos in a future war because we have a FTA with them?
What if Clark is seriously suggesting we back China TODAY in spite of their record on human rights, worker safety, etc.
Oh, she is. Well, when they take over Taiwan will you say the same thing PM? Our trade will have little impact on China, so we may as well keep trading.
When they move to control the oil fields around Indonesia, will you say the same thing?
At the moment we are not even sitting by, we are supporting them. At least the argument that trade helps to lift their game provides some moral rationale for supporting China, but if we could see the future of what Germany was about to do, would we do it the same? I'd hope not.
Should we trade and have relations with nations who do evil? Yes we should, at least in the general case.
ReplyDeleteThe first reason is that we murder 18,000 unborn every year so should other countries trade with New Zealand!? So that is the argument from hypocrisy.
The second reason is that relations and trade is precisely how you free peoples and change countries for the good. If you want political change in China, trade with them, in so doing build up the middle class and then watch the political change roll in. That is the argument based on working towards positivity instead of simply rejecting evil.
To further explain this think of China as a friend who joins a repressive religious sect that still allows it's members to relate to those on the outside. Their beliefs and behaviour is utterly reprehensible, what do you do? Do you disown your friend? Well it's an option if really really necessary but the consequences are that your friend's heart will harden and they will only be more set in their ways. However, if you continue to relate to them while rejecting the evil in their lives and diplomatically working against that and generally being a good example you have the chance of making positive changes.
Just think how the US sanctions on Cuba have only increased the power of the regime and delayed the reform of Cuba for decades that we are only just starting to see now.
"The second reason is that relations and trade is precisely how you free peoples and change countries for the good.'
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm all for optimism but that's just blind hope.
Trade with Indonesia didn't stop that country murdering a million or so Chinese and thousands of Timorese.
China is using the foreign currency earned by trade to build up a huge military arsenal. Not only did they invade Tibet, they're also extending their influence into various Pacific Islands.
Hoping that increased trade will somehow transform an ideology and persuade those in power to give up a large part of that power is simply a hope--it's entirely possible for the Chinese to flex their economic muscle to bring Western countries in to line, rather than change themselves.
Anybody here remember the N.Z. Government's police shutting down protesters at the behest of the Chinese Ambassador?
By the time the NZ economy is deeply dependent on trade with China, how much more compliant will our government be?
An afterthought:
ReplyDeleteSupposing China is willing to pay--say--$10 a litre for milk or $500 a ton for coal? Does anyone seriously argue that we won't be forced to pay the same?
I'm no economist (obviously) but it seems to me that China is flooding the world with cheap consumer goods and using the money generated to pay high prices for the energy they need so badly.
So--in return for cheap DVD players and suchlike, we get to pay much higher prices for commodities produced here in NZ.
A dubious bargain, it seems to me.
Just to offer a counterview Universal:
ReplyDeleteThe first reason is that we murder 18,000 unborn every year so should other countries trade with New Zealand!? So that is the argument from hypocrisy.
I don't murder 18,000 children per year, and I advocate against abortion. I am therefore not hypocritical. It is consistent for me to argue against a FTA on this basis, and up to democracy to make the decision. In any event, the argument from hypocrisy is weak. If we we guilty of all of the same human rights transgressions that might make more sense.
The second reason is that relations and trade is precisely how you free peoples and change countries for the good.
I said as much myself, but ultimately I am unsure our trading status will make a real difference. If China want to trade, they can start trading on promising human rights improvements. Then we are trading and improving, rather than an assumed improvement (China has the capacity to not improve the way you assume).
Equally, with your story about a friend in a cult, what about trading with the Mongrel Mob? You make them richer by trade, and they beat up your neighbours and pipe drugs into schools. As long as you send your kids to other schools and live outside their neighbourhood you think you are fine. Until one day they are so rich they setup a new chapter and recruit your kids as pushers...
We can think of any number of reasons for and against, to "justify" any position. In the final analysis, I suspect we know wrong when wrong it is.
We were already trading with China. The FTA only legitimises the Chinese regime and of course NZ once again leads the World in stupidity.
ReplyDeleteYes and we will probably end up paying more for locally produced commodities and no the FTA won't benefit the vast majority of NZers only a select few.