I was prompted to look up the details of the Peter Ellis case by a comment by DPF today that he was "aghast at how he was found guilty."
My opinion on the case was formed a number of years ago when I heard two of the victims being interviewed on the radio. And now, the more I read, the more sure I am that many of the supposed problems with the case don't so much show that Peter Ellis was innocent - they instead just show problems with the case.Therefore, I think that fact that the man is still in prison is a good thing. NZ has enough problems with released paedophiles as it is.
UPDATE: It seems he is out. It seemed with all the hysteria, it seened that he must have been still behind bars. Obviously being a convicted paedophile is bad for getting jobs close to children, so of course he wants to "clear his name".
So, I found it really enlightening to read an opinion piece published 10 years ago by Theodore Dalrymple on NZ's increased liberality with regards to criminality in our country. I'll use the example of the two girls that killed one of the girls' mothers in the 50's to illustrate how this liberality works:
Small children just don't make up testimony of the sort that these children gave. They don't have that sort of imagination.
Related Link: What Causes Crime? ~ City Journal
My opinion on the case was formed a number of years ago when I heard two of the victims being interviewed on the radio. And now, the more I read, the more sure I am that many of the supposed problems with the case don't so much show that Peter Ellis was innocent - they instead just show problems with the case.
UPDATE: It seems he is out. It seemed with all the hysteria, it seened that he must have been still behind bars. Obviously being a convicted paedophile is bad for getting jobs close to children, so of course he wants to "clear his name".
So, I found it really enlightening to read an opinion piece published 10 years ago by Theodore Dalrymple on NZ's increased liberality with regards to criminality in our country. I'll use the example of the two girls that killed one of the girls' mothers in the 50's to illustrate how this liberality works:
The shift in the interpretation of the Parker-Hulme case signals a sea change in New Zealand's attitude toward crime in general, a change that has occurred everywhere else in the Western world. Public opinion at the time universally regarded the Parker-Hulme murder as the evil act of evil girls acting in the grip of an evil passion. Nowadays a different interpretation is almost as universal. A well-known book on the case, Parker and Hulme: A Lesbian View, by two lesbian academics, Julie Glamuzina and Alison Laurie, sums up today's prevailing opinion.I think a similar thing has occurred with the Peter Ellis case. The man is a homosexual who was working in a child-care centre with young children. But he's now somehow become the poster boy for "unjustly" accused men everywhere, and for some reason the inappropriateness of him working in the creche is almost ignored.
According to the reinterpretation, the Parker-Hulme case was not a brutal and pointless murder but the natural, inevitable outcome of a grand passion thwarted by narrow-minded social prejudice and intolerance. New Zealand was then a repressed and repressive society, and something had to give. The authors unquestioningly accept the hydraulic model of human desire, according to which passion is like the pus in an abscess, which, if not drained, causes blood poisoning, delirium, and death. If society prevented two lesbian adolescents from acting upon their passion, therefore, it was only to be expected that they should have done to death the mother of one of them. The primordial wrongness of bashing people with bricks has vanished altogether.
In support of their hypothesis, the two authors asked a number of lesbians who grew up at the time of the case for their reaction to it. Yes, they replied, they understood the girls only too well, for they themselves had sometimes harbored murderous feelings toward their parents. Both the authors and the respondents overlooked the significant moral difference between occasionally wishing one's mother would drop dead and causing her actually to do so. Nor is this obtuseness exclusive to lesbians. The Los Angeles Times reported the film's director, Peter Jackson, as regarding his own film as nonjudgmental. This, of course, lays bare the curious moral stance of our age: it is not wrong to bash an innocent woman to death with a brick, but it is wrong to condemn the deed and its perpetrators.
From being branded monsters of depravity, Parker and Hulme now appear almost martyrs to a cause. Public opinion admires them—not because they managed after their release from five years' imprisonment to make successful new lives for themselves, thus pointing to the hope and possibility of redemption (Juliet Hulme has become an internationally acclaimed crime novelist, under the name Ann Perry). Instead, it's because they are thought to have engaged in a lesbian affair at a time of extreme primness and propriety in New Zealand—though Hulme explicitly denies that this was the case. They are believed to have acted upon forbidden desires, the greatest feat of heroism that the bien-pensants of our age can imagine.
Another case of injustice, even more destructive in its effects than the Bain case, is the case of Peter Ellis, a young man accused and found guilty in 1996 of horrific sexual abuse of children in a municipal day-care center in Christchurch. The case has many, and eerie, parallels with a notorious case that took place in the town of Wenatchee, Washington.It certainly seems that in the Peter Ellis case that Dalrymple is saying that Peter Ellis might not have been guilty, and maybe he isn't guilty and a huge injustice has been done. However, all of that is obscured by a number of other factors that make trying to make sense of it all really difficult. But to have Peter Ellis as poster boy for innocent man behind bars - I don't buy it.
It was alleged and supposedly proved in court that Ellis had strung children up, sodomized them, and made them drink urine and have oral sex with him. This continued for a prolonged period, without any physical evidence of his activities ever having come to light. No parent suspected that anything was wrong until the initial accusation was made, and then accusations followed in epidemic fashion.
It now emerges that much of the evidence was tainted. The woman who made the first accusation was a fanatic who possessed and had read a great deal of literature about satanic abuse. The detective in charge of the investigation (who has since resigned from the police) had an affair with her and with another of the accusing mothers. The foreman of the jury was related to one of the accusers. Many of the children have since retracted their testimonies, which social workers had obtained by lengthy interrogation. And now the homosexual lobby has alleged that Ellis was accused in the first place because he was a homosexual, and because it was unusual for a man to work in a day-care center. The controversy over the case threatens to degenerate into an argument as to who is most politically correct.
A New Zealand court has given credence to accusations that even the Spanish Inquisition might have found preposterous, a sign oddly enough of how far the courts have come under the influence of the bien-pensants, and how much they fear their censure and crave their approbation. For sexual abuse is the one crime that escapes the all-embracing understanding and forgiveness of such liberals, being a crime whose supposed pervasiveness in all ages exposes as hypocritical the pretensions of bourgeois society to decency and morality and makes clear, as well, that any one of us, in the hands of a sufficiently sensitive therapist, might discover his own secret victimhood, absolving him of responsibility for his life and actions. Sexual abuse is thus an intellectual battering ram with which to discredit the traditional edifice of self-restraint and to wipe away the personal responsibility of individuals, and no judge can do himself harm in the eyes of the right-thinking by taking the hardest and most punitive of lines toward it, whether it actually occurred in any particular instance or not.
Small children just don't make up testimony of the sort that these children gave. They don't have that sort of imagination.
Related Link: What Causes Crime? ~ City Journal
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ReplyDeleteSorry Fugley, your modus operandi is very clear. So all comments by you and any other name you try to use will be deleted.
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ReplyDeleteLucyna, this post is beneath you. I suggest you put it away, and go and read Hood's book.
ReplyDeleteShe explains how this entire episode arose. And believe me, it arose out of completely nothing.
From a perfectly innocent happening, paranoia, gossip, misdirection turned nothing into a full scale criminal investigation. It's actually funny in a way, because the left wing feminist ideology started a full-scale attack on itself.
There is zero evidence that Peter Ellis did anything. Trust me on that. The only reason that he was put in jail is that people felt that all the fuss had to have something behind it, and the only man around was the one that copped the punishment. The fact that he was/is gay just made it a little easier for people to believe.
Just have a look at the average left-wing post, how they take a small nothing, examine it under their bizare beliefs, blow it up out of all proportion, then someone else quotes that, blows it up further... imagine that creating a criminal investigation and you've got the civic creche case.
"Small children just don't make up testimony of the sort that these children gave. They don't have that sort of imagination."
ReplyDeletePerhaps--and perhaps not. There's ample evidence that children being interviewed are fed suggestions by the interviewers which they then adopt as their own, as the scandals over 'recovered memories' showed.
I can only echo what Scrubone says--Hood's book is an eye-opener.
I am not sure that he is not guilty. Apparently there were a number of children they testified against him.
ReplyDeleteI too am concerned about homosexual men being in charge of preschoolers. I think there are too many links between the homosexual movement (which I consider sinful) and groups promoting paedophilia.
>Small children just don't make up testimony of
ReplyDelete>the sort that these children gave
As KG said, they didn't make it up. They were repeatedly asked leading questions until they gave the answer the interviewer was seeking.
Small children will do that. If you ask them whether the sun is blue and don't give them any positive reinforcement when they say no, eventually they will start saying yes.
Look people, I'm not going to read a book that will tell me what to think about this case. What I have been read is the transcripts and the pro-Peter Ellis arguments. The arguments don't stack up and the transcripts are horrendous (here is a link to them).
ReplyDeleteI don't care if I'm out on a limb here with public opinion - looks like I'm basically immune from it because I was not in the country in when it happened.
I do find this case very disturbing, and the readiness of many to dismiss the evidence of the children.
Everyone's so ready to believe that Catholic priests can be paedophiles - but a homosexual creche worker - surely not!
The facts are that a greater proportion of paedophiles are homosexual and have a much larger number of victims than hetero paedophiles.
For reasons of the extreme danger that homosexuals pose to children, the Vatican no longer allows even celibate homosexuals to be taken on as seminarians (priest trainees).
NZ would do well to take note.
As KG said, they didn't make it up. They were repeatedly asked leading questions until they gave the answer the interviewer was seeking.
ReplyDeleteNo way. There is no way you could lead a child with no experience of abuse to give the types of answers given. Absolutely no way.
Just like you could not lead a small child to give a explanation of an algebraic formula - no matter how much you lead them.
Algebraic formulas and gay sex are just too far outside of a small child's normal experience.
Many of the children - who are now adults - have publically stated that they were coached by the psychologists that interviewed them and that no abuse took place.
ReplyDeleteIf you accept that the testimonies of the children HAVE to be true then you are accepting that Ellis and his co-workers raped and tortured hundreds of children and murdered at least one without leaving any medical evidence whatsoever.
"Look people, I'm not going to read a book that will tell me what to think about this case."
ReplyDeleteBit ironic after extensively quoting Theodore Dalrymple's 'Life at the Bottom'.
Danyl,
ReplyDeleteConsidering that you have a problem recognising the difference between "all", "most" and "some", I'm a bit surprised that you are putting yourself out there with the word "many". Maybe give me some proof - some statements online would help.
And I'll counter with an interview of a man who didn't reveal anything occurred to him until he was 16 - many years after the event.
Linda Clark with Nathan and his mother
Looks like Peter Ellis hung around the creche before he even worked there.
Lindsay,
Do you actually have a point?
http://www.peterellis.org.nz/2003/2003-0628_ThePress_ComplainantSeeksInquiryIntoEllisCase.htm
ReplyDeleteDanyl, that's one (interestingly enough, a girl). Certainly not graphic testimony that was withdrawn.
ReplyDeleteDo you have any more to make up your "many"?
The facts are that a greater proportion of paedophiles are homosexual
ReplyDeleteCare to back this claim up with a reference to something that doesn't have the words "life" "family" or "Catholic" in the URL? I think you will find most child abusers are the heterosexual partners of the victim's mother. That includes abused boys, suggesting attraction to boys is about paedophilia not homosexuality. This last point is detailed here
(oh, it would be good if the reference didn't include the world "values" either)
David, what is your problem with URLs with the words "life" "family" or "Catholic" or "values"? Do you believe all such links are lies? This is a serious question, btw.
ReplyDeleteDo you also want all studies conducted by married women with children excluded as well - must be a bit of bias there as well...
In fact, any opinion by myself must be bunk as well, since I'm Catholic!
ReplyDeletesuch websites usually start with the premise that homosexuality, godlessness , stem cells and condoms are the great evils of society and as a result you get a lot of sophistry trying to prove that point. If I told you that homosexuals made great parents and gave you a link to www.rainbownation.com/LGBT/GaysAreOK.html (I don't think that's a real URL...) to back it up I'm fairly sure you wouldn't bother clicking on it.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand if you're claim that "
The facts are that a greater proportion of paedophiles are homosexual" was true you'd think you'd be able to find an article that supports that idea somewhere in the mainstream.
David, the problem with "the mainstream", is that it tends to toe the party line. That's why blogs are such a raging success in many countries in the world. And the current party line is that homosexuality is good, so good in fact, that if you don't believe that you are attacked and vilified. Not much room for any balanced reporting there.
ReplyDeleteHere you go, a link that satisfies most of your conditions: http://www.narth.com/docs/pedophNEW.html
In proportion to their numbers (about 1 out of 36 men), homosexual males may be more likely to engage in sex with minors: in fact, some research suggests a possible 3-to-one ratio (8). However, research in this area is not conclusive because the sexual orientation of male-on-male abusers was not always clear (some abusers are bisexuals).
These statistics do not, of course, take into account the cases of homosexual child abuse which are unreported. NARTH's Executive Director Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, for example, says that about one-third of his 400 adult homosexual clients said they had experienced some form of homosexual abuse before the age of consent, but only two of those cases had been reported to legal authorities.
While no more than 2% of male adults are homosexual, some studies indicate that approximately 35% of pedophiles are homosexual (9). Further, since male-on-male pedophiles victimize far more children than do heterosexual pedophiles (10), it is estimated that approximately 80% of pedophilic victims are boys who have been molested by adult males (11).
*
8. Freund, K. and R. I. Watson, The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles Among Sex Offenders Against Children: An Exploratory Study, Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 18 (Spring 1992): 3443.
9. K. Freund et al., Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality, Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (Fall 1984): 197.
10. Freund, K. and R. I. Watson, The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles Among Sex Offenders Against Children: An Exploratory Study, Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 18 (Spring 1992): 3443.
11. Schmidt, Thomas (1995). Straight and Narrow? Compassion and Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate. Downers Grove, Ill.: Intervarsity Press, p. 114.
See, this is what I mean by sophistry.
ReplyDeleteLets look at the first cited article in the quoted section, the one the text author thinks "suggests a 3:1 ratio" actually includes the text "This, of course, would not indicate that androphilic males have a greater propensity to offend against children." and concludes that preference for females outweighs preference for males 11:1 among pedophiles. Hardly support for your original claim that "greater proportion of paedophiles are homosexual"
Next we cite a paper and claim it says 35% of paedophiles are gay (rather a lot less than most, but still an over representation). But here's the problem, if that number hasn't been plucked out of thin air then it must actually be the proportion of paedophiles that showed a preference for males, not the proportion off offenders that where attracted to adult males. They, in fact, note a large disparity between adult-partner preference and the victims of offending.
By the way other studies have found that left-handedness and birth order as associated with paedophilia. Should the Vatican be excluding younger siblings and left handers from the seminary for the "extreme danger they pose to children" too?
So, you might want to consider,just for a moment the idea that media aren't under the thrall of a homosexualist movement or PC indoctrination or what ever it is this week. And those folks at Catholics for Tradtional Values and Family Life are, willfully or not, capable of misleading people
You know David, only sophistry at work here is your own.
ReplyDeleteLet's put in the whole abstract:
Previous investigations have indicated that the ratio of sex offenders against female children vs. offenders against male children is approximately 2:1, while the ratio of gynephiles to androphiles among the general population is approximately 20:1. The present study investigated whether the etiology of preferred partner sex among pedophiles is related to the etiology of preferred partner sex among males preferring adult partners. Using phallometric test sensitivities to calculate the proportion of true pedophiles among various groups of sex offenders against children, and taking into consideration previously reported mean numbers of victims per offender group, the ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles was calculated to be approximately 11:1. This suggests that the resulting proportion of true pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually. This, of course, would not indicate that androphilic males have a greater propensity to offend against children.
I'll repeat that relevant bit that you missed out when you quoted the text : This suggests that the resulting proportion of true pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually.
Next we cite a paper and claim it says 35% of paedophiles are gay ...
No. We don't. What we do is cite the personal experience of one of the staff of the number of homosexual men whose first homosexual sexual experience occurred below the age of consent, and was with an older homosexual man. 1/3 of 400 in fact, only 2 reported to the authorities.
The predatory nature of homosexual men to young boys not register for you, David?
Your next bit of subtle twisting is making out that homosexuality is only defined by desire for adult males (what is an adult, btw?). So Peter Ellis, who was an active homosexual, (liked adult males) and also liked small children must cause some sort of brain explosions for you. Either he was a paedophile or a homosexual, but not both? Is that what you are arguing? If so, it does make me wonder what leg you are standing on.
By the way other studies have found that left-handedness and birth order as associated with paedophilia. Should the Vatican be excluding younger siblings and left handers from the seminary for the "extreme danger they pose to children" too?
Now you are being silly. Being a man is also associated with paedophilia. It's really a matter of looking at risk factors, and those who do not have normal sexual preference are far more likely to go outside the norm when it comes to the age of their victims as well.
So, you might want to consider,just for a moment the idea that media aren't under the thrall of a homosexualist movement or PC indoctrination or what ever it is this week. And those folks at Catholics for Tradtional Values and Family Life are, willfully or not, capable of misleading people.
A direct quote from one of your blogs:
Lucyna (yes, an anagram of lunacy...)
It seems to me, David, that your purpose here is not to champion the truth, but to divert attention from it. Normally people that do this have a vested interest in doing so. I've declared all my biases - time for you to front up as well if you wish to continue.
Lucyna,
ReplyDeleteHere is the précis.
You're original claim was "a greater proportion of paedophiles are homosexual". This is not supported by the references above.
You might then revert to a lesser claim - that homosexual men are more likely to be paedophiles. In support of this claim you have presented evidence that proportion of male-male abuse among cases of child abuse is higher than the rate of homosexuality in the wider public. What you failed to realise, read or take on board is that many of those cases of male-male child abuse were committed by heterosexual men. That's both in terms of self reported sexuality and physiological tests. There is a review of this research here (I will admit that URL has the rainbow in it...). Some studies have shown a weak association between homosexual preference in adult partners and paedophilia others have not. On the whole there is little evidence for it and certainly no grounds for your claims that most pedophiles are homosexuals, that 35% of paedophiles are homosexual or that homosexuals pose and extreme risk to children.
Peter Ellis could have been both a homosexual and a child abuser, but there is no evidence that his attraction to adult males made him more likely to be a child abuser. If you don't want to believe that men who are attracted to adult women and abuse boys are straight then that's up to you, it doesn't change this fact.
I've declared all my biases - time for you to front up as well if you wish to continue.
Are you trying to force me to out myself? I'm sorry Lucyna, I'm not gay. Casual bigotry ("extreme danger that homosexuals pose to children") annoys me. If someone makes unfounded or confused statements that seem to aim at limiting the degree to which a group of people can be a part of our society then I'm going to point out how confused they are.
I like reading and commenting here because, well, it interesting to see how other people minds work. I don't think I've deliberately derailed a conversation here, what I'm interested in is making sure the evidence is misrepresented, other that other people are welcome to argue about the moral implications. If you don't want to do that I'm sure I can find somewhere else to check in with such minds.
(obviously I mean "not misrepresented in the last paragraph there)
ReplyDeleteOk, I apologise to anyone who is still getting emails/rss updates about his repulsive topic but I came across something that was too good not to point out.
ReplyDeleteMe:
By the way other studies have found that left-handedness [is] associated with paedophilia.
Lucyna:
Now you are being silly.... It's really a matter of looking at risk factors, and those who do not have normal sexual preference are far more likely to go outside the norm when it comes to the age of their victims as well
Well, even if we considered the paper you cited above by itself we would conclude that the ratio of heterosexuals to homosexuals was 11:1 within a sample of paedophiles. This, as they point out, is about 1.8 times greater than a reasonable estimate of the same ratio in the wider public. But, this study has found that 30% of paedophiles (excluding cases of incest) studied were not right handed (ie left-handed or ambidextrous), which is three times the rate in the general public. This result is also statistically significant, a detail not made clear in the earlier paper.
So, Lucyna, if your comments above are really "about risk factors" and the "great risks" groups of people pose to children and not simply reflective of an anti-gay prejudice shouldn't you be even more concerned about sinister folk being brought into the seminary and let in charge of children?
Of the difference in the absolute risk that either group poses to children is so small that there is no need for such witch hunts. I just hope it puts the situation in some perspective.
(btw I did think of a possible bias, since you think that's the only reason I would I carry on this conversion. I do really like Patrick Wolf)
I wonder if Peter Ellis is left handed?
ReplyDeleteWhat about the issue of causality David?
The issues of risk are separate from the issues of occurrence.
All pedophiles breathe.
Most pedophiles are male.
More than half are left handed.
All very interesting, and perhaps we could argue that any person displaying any of the above three characteristics are not left alone with children. But that is the "being silly" part.
You would have to show a link between left handedness and sexual disorder to provide relevance.
Equally, it would require showing a link between homosexuality and pedestry or pedophila.
The point about your ratio, it would seem to me that if homosexuals represent 2-4% of the population, then that should roughly be the same proportion in the pedophile group?
It would appear to be higher. I am left wondering if some people are homosexual due to abuse of some sort themselves? That is, there may be a link between homosexuality and pedophilia not because homosexuals are any more likely to be pedophiles per se, but that people who have been abused are statistically more likely to become abusers, and my understanding is homosexuals are more likely to have such a history. Is this the case anyone?
PS: Does anyone know more about the warnings and complaints made about Peter Ellis in another creche prior to the main incident? I cannot find details, other than it was during a period he was doing community service for fraud. Such information could mean nothing, or it could be significant.
Zen, this is all much more reasonable, it was Lucyna's declaration of "the facts" and presumption they where somehow relevant to the case at hand that I objected to most.
ReplyDeleteThere is actually a potential aetiology springing from the left-handedness observation - at least a few cases of left-handedness appear to be the result perinatal stress (birth complications or infection) messing up neurological development. We know that paedophile's brains are functionally different than "normal" brains so it's reasonable to imagine that the same "nerological insults" might be at play in both disorders (it's also long been known that paedophiles are more likely to have suffered a brain trauma before teenage-hood)
But in terms of risk, and this surely is what matters, such statistics describe groups and tell us very little about individuals. When someone applies to the seminary, even if we thought being left handed made them 3x more likely to be a paedophile, knowing they were left handed might raise their risk to children from 1 in 100 000 to 3 in 100 000. It really tells us very little.
it would seem to me that if homosexuals represent 2-4% of the population, then that should roughly be the same proportion in the pedophile group?
Well, with the proviso that it's very hard to accurately estimate the rate of homosexuality, yes. And it's not clear that homosexuals are overrepresented in the paedophile population - one of the above studies found they were others have not. What's more important is that even if they are overrepresented by a small factor this will only raise the absolute risk a given gay man poses to children by an infinitesimal amount. Not an extreme one.
It shouldn't factor into whether we hire someone or how likely we believe it to be Peter Ellis committed the crimes he was convicted of.