Friday, October 26, 2012

Lucia Muslim immigration as a gift from God

A very different way of looking at Muslim immigration:

The Muslim immigration, an act of divine Providence

Also the presence of Muslim groups in Western and European countries requires urgent evangelization. In Islamic countries it is almost impossible to invite a Muslim to discover the Gospel. Almost everywhere, even in those Muslim countries called "secular" (Turkey and Tunisia for example), conversion from Islam to Christianity is not, in practice, a trivial or permitted act. This difficulty is due to the fact that Islam, being a political-military reality as well as a religious-spiritual one, considers conversion a betrayal of the "Muslim Nation" (the Ummah), and prohibits evangelization under penalty of imprisonment or death.

But immigration has changed the face of the matter. In Western Europe, there are about 15 million Muslims. Too often we see their arrival as an invasion, and perhaps it is to a certain extent, because it is changing the structure of society too quickly, and is likely to radically change society in the future.

But there is another possible reading. If this immigration, mainly for economic reasons, were an act of divine Providence that is sending the Muslims into a more liberal and neutral territory. Thus, instead of seeing immigration as an aggression, we can see it as an opportunity for encounter and to exchange values: they present their spirituality, and we have the opportunity to freely present our spirituality. It seems to me more constructive and positive to change lens and see this immigration as a gift from God.

Related link: The New Evangelization, aided by the Muslims

15 comment(s):

wretchedwithhope said...

Forgive me if i don't share your enthusiasm - especially since islam is about taking converts and never giving them up:
–long-parents-dont-tell-anyone.html And on and on…

Lucia Maria said...

Hi Wretchedwithhope,

Did you read the linked article? It certainly got me thinking.

I'm a revert to the Catholic Faith, inspired by reading my way back into it. A big part of my motivation was trying to understand the history of Europe and Islam, and what you do know, I found that the Catholic Church was always at the heart of Europe, in a much bigger way than I'd ever realised. I came across all the battles with Islam that I had never heard of and then on the Feast Day of Our Lady of the Rosary (formerly named Our Lady of Victory in honour of the defeat of the Islamic fleet at Lepanto after a battle with overwhelming odds against the Christians), I formerly came back to the Catholic. Quite by accident on my part, but I'm sure Heaven had quite a bit to do with the date.

Anyway, I can see how contact with Islam can inspire faith as it did so for me in a round about way.

Maybe that's part of God's plan for reinvigorating Europe and converting the Muslims?

wretchedwithhope said...

Why would a Christian look to Islam concerning anything to do with evangilization? Christ and his Church vouchsafe all we need to find salvation.

Islam does not speak truthfull to infidels - it's hard to accept but it's a fact - we should no more think of co-operating with Islam than with communism.

they are anti-christ.

In the Arabic language and Arab-Muslim mentality the word “peace” doesn’t exist in its European sense. There is peace among Muslims. There is peace when the infidels are subjugated and beg for mercy– then they can be granted peace. And there is Hudna, when the infidel enemy is strong and his destruction is postponed for a time. Hudna, the long-term truce, that is the best we can get– and only if we are strong.

an spostate church is not going to 'convert/revert' because of a false religion and a false prophet.

wretchedwithhope said...

ps.s immigration of peoples is one thing - facilitating the tranplant of Islam into Christendom is quite another.


Muslim immigration sounds more like the work of the other fellow, if you ask me.

Lucia Maria said...




You are telling me everything I already know about Islam. You should read some of my earlier posts! However, it looks to me like you still haven't read my related link, from which I have plucked the most provocative and juicy part. The rest talks about evangelising Muslims. Please read it.

wretchedwithhope said...

i tried but there's a '500 internal servor error.' But nonetheless, 'evangilisation aided by Muslim', is a contradiction in terms - are these 'aiding' Muslims converted? And if so, they're no longer muslims, if they are are still loyal to the yoke of Islam...

'Islam is definitley an enemy of our faith:   Islam was the first direct, major religious contradiction of and attack on Christian revelation and belief. Islam has also been considered a Christian heresy because many of Muhammed’s beliefs appear to have been garnered from heretical Christian communities living in his area during his lifetime. God went to tremendous effort and trouble to reveal Himself to mankind through His Son. He became man, taught, healed, laughed, loved, suffered and died for us. He wanted us to know Him personally, "I and the Father are one" (Jn 10:30) and "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9). He did not just dictate another book, albeit a miraculous, perfect one, again. No, that wouldn't do. He became one of us, and handed on the faith to other humans and told them to do likewise, calling us to genuinely become His children: "Through faith, you are all children of God in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:26) On the other hand, this new purported revelation from Muhammad reverted mankind's relationship with God back thousands of years, arguably even more. Muhammad gave us another book, no Holy Spirit, and insisted we are not sons and daughters of the Father, but merely bondservants or slaves. "Islam" literally means "submission" or "slavery". It insists on pushing us away from God, holding Him at a distance, a distance He once lovingly bridged with outstretched arms. It is revealing that of all the Muslim names for God, none is "Father" or "Love".'

I look at what has happened in the UK over the past couple of decades. It's not an intergrative picture let alone one with an openess to conversion.

The 'problem' that is Islam is not small. No smaller in this world than secularism, hyper-individualism or the father of lies. But, heaven forbid that in our fear or ignorance this should be our bequest to those after us.
Yes we should be supporting the evangilization of poor souls born under the lie of Islam, but we should not be advancing those lies.

KG said...

If anybody thinks that converting muslims to Christianity in any significant numbers is possible, they need medication.
Apart from anything else, considering that apostasy is punishable by death in islam, whoever converts them will be responsible for an awful lot of deaths...or is that whippings or acid thrown in faces or rape or disfigurement?
One loses track of the varieties of their savagery after a while.

Lucia Maria said...


If it's possible anywhere, it's possible in the West where we have a more free and open society and changing religion is not something that people consider punishable by death. We just have to get better at protecting those who do convert, which in Europe is somewhat abysmal from what I read.

Tomorrow is the 1700th anniversary of the Milvian Bridge, which lead to the conversion of a Roman emperor and the end of wide scale Christian persecution by the Roman State. At the time, I would bet that anyone who thought a Roman emperor would become Christian and thus made the environment safe for Christianity to flourish, to be in need of medication as well.

See Constantine's Gift to Christianity


Matthew said...


I read through all your comments and I agree with your points. But it seems at first glance you might have the wrong end of the stick.

Islam for sure is a wicked faith that comes from satan himself. In fact the 'Allah' that Muslims worship will be nothing other than a demon or demonic prince who has deceived them.

But this is the reason why we need to evangelise them from their false faith that leads to eternal punichment to give them a choice for a true, Biblical, authentic faith in Jesus Christ. Yes the choice is theirs, and they are in most desparate need of it.

Yes, Islam is an enemy of the Christian faith and of God Himself, but that was never a reason to not evangelise its followers, was it?

I think you pretty much made this point in your last comment. But I don't think that Lucia Maria was actually saying we should integrate the Islamic faith into the Christian faith, or I didn't get that impression from her. Of course it is wrong to integrate the two together.

KG said...

Lucia Maria: Firstly, the Romans weren't muslim fanatics.
Second, there is no central figure in islam who would have the authority and credibility to end muslim persecution of Christians and those of other religions.
While history has its lessons for us, to pin one's hopes on an historical incident which bears little relationship to the present situation is hopelessly optimistic. Or simply unrealistic.
You believe in miracles. I don't.
How many people have to die at the hands of these barbarians before Christians put aside their passivity in the face of evil?

I'm off to work for eight days out bush, with no internet so unfortunately I can't continue the conversation.

wretchedwithhope said...

Well, I'll continue to pray that the deal the Dunedin diocese is doing with a Muslim charity who want to buy an old Catholic School off them and turn it into a Koranic institute for young men, falls through. This to me is aiding an abetting. the constant refferal to muslim (in the link article - it finally opened) to modesty simply holds no water when the women are treated like whores and the bruises, scars and possily acid burns are under those robes. If muslim immigrants would integrate then immigration might be a God send. But stats show that's not happening. Bassam Tibi address this in his book 'Poltical Islam World Politics and Europe'. The way I see it if most people could they would run a mile from their Muslim birth - it's not allowed. There's the moving story of one man's attempt in The Price To Pay by Jospeh Fadelle.

Lucia Maria said...


True, the Romans weren't Muslim fanatics. However, that didn't stop them from killing the Christians in a variety of particularly gruesome and horrible ways.

From my link on Constantine:

"Christians were stripped and flogged with whips, put on the rack, scraped with iron combs used to card wool, and had salt and vinegar poured over their fresh wounds; they were slowly roasted to death over fires individually or thrown on great piles to be burned alive en masse (an entire town in Phrygia—men, women, and children—was set on fire by soldiers); they were strangled or run through with swords; they were tied hand and foot, put into boats, and once pushed out to sea, drowned; they were jailed, and then led into the arena to be torn to pieces by panthers, bears, boars, and bulls; they had their skin torn bit by bit with pottery shards, or they were decapitated; women were stripped and hung upside down for public humiliation, and sometimes believers were hung this way over a fire so as to be choked by the smoke; Christians had their limbs tied to trees that were bent down and then let snap, tearing their legs or arms from their bodies; sharp reeds were driven under fingernails, molten lead was poured down backs, genitals horribly mutilated, eyes gouged out and cauterized with a hot iron, and the list goes on."

My point being, given the history of the persecution suffered by Christians in the Roman State, anyone who imagined a Roman emperor could be converted might be considered mad. And yet it happened.

You're right, I do believe in miracles and I am optimistic because I believe in a God who has already defeated evil on earth - we are just determining who gets to spend eternity in heaven with Him and who doesn't. My preference is that as many people as possible get to do so.

Our about page links to a page that talks about the battle we fight being primarily a spiritual battle, not a physical one. And the battle for the conversion of Muslims has not yet been seriously attempted. It needs to be. And it should have the greatest chance of success in the West, more so than any other place .. except for our terrible record of believing in the the religion that allows us to live the way we do.

wretchedwithhope said...

This is where muslim-Christian 'dialogue' goes - Muslim diatribe against Christians:

Lucia Maria said...

All the more reason to convert them.

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