Saturday, December 22, 2007

ZenTiger Justice is blind

Well, it certainly is in New Zealand. And they shot the seeing eye dog.

Related Link: NZ Passport Scandal and here too: Clark targets Jews

25 comment(s):

I.M Fletcher said...

This government is ridiculous, especially Ms Clark. They don't give a hoot about the safety of the citizenry; it's all about the money, and the power.

I wonder what a young Helen Clark would think of her current self. Would she be shocked with what she found? Or would she rejoice that NZ is turning into the kind of Communist/Feminist state she always dreamed of.

I was having a conversation with my mother the other day and was wondering how Helen can keep on defending the EFB. I was saying that she's not a stupid woman and surely she must see what she is doing to democracy here and how wrong it is. My mother said, well, these people just don't see it - like Hitler they come to actually believe that the lies they tell are true. It's like they brainwash themselves.

If so, that makes Helen a very dangerous woman, believing her own lies and unsympathetic to the needs of her country.

Why doesn't she just go lived in a Communist country if that's the way she likes to live, and leave New Zealand and our democratic society alone.

dad4justice said...

Helen Klark has planned the ruin of New Zealand very carefully starting from the mid seventies . It has been heartwrenching watching the rights of kiwi citizen's eroded by a feminist regime .

Sittingbull said...

I think that maybe the 'ends justify the means' mentallity just sneaks up on you when there is no clear voice of reason to keep you grounded. I mean look at King Solomon, wise, but eventually loosing touch with the people. Even with a belief in a day of accounting with God for your decisions you can still loose the plot. What about someone who surrounds themselves with strategists and silences anything they percieve as not in line with strategy. She is dangerous, but she is also finished. I agree D4J it is sad. But is it a reflection of the apathy of our nation that let her do it.

Psycho Milt said...

And back in the real world, where direct comparisons between the New Zealand PM and Hitler or Solomon seem just a little overwrought, we might note the not-insubstantial difference between how a govt reacts to efforts by a foreign intelligence agency to procure a NZ passport to assist in its assassination programme, compared with how it reacts to a couple of foreign crims who've come before the courts. In the first case, it takes some pretty serious action - in the second case, it keeps its nose out of the courts' business.

The above is more relevant to the linked posts than yours Zen, but there'd be little point in bringing a note of reason to those loony fringe sites.

ZenTiger said...

I disagree Psycho. Also in the real world, it is fairly sensible (dare I say S.O.P) to procure ones passports, weapons and drugs using third parties, go betweens and mules etc.

In the case of the Iraq mob, it is still not clear just how they were also going to assist assassination, terrorism and (perhaps) smuggling wheat into Iraq under the very noses of the U.N. oil for food inspectors. (Oh how that must chaff)

The Israeli's may deserve a bit of left wing stick for not using a go-between in this instance, but that doesn't really allow the argument to be framed as "National Security issue" for the first group and "harmless fun" for the latter.

Helen Clark needs to be even handed about both issues, as both issues concern National Security. She has not been, and the posts I linked to have justified criticism I think.

Remember to, she is the head of SIS as well as being Prime Minister.

KG said...

PM, you know for sure that the Israelis were procuring a passport to assist an assassination program?
Do tell--not all of us have your access to SIS files, you know.
And a group from the M.E.caught with dozens of forged documents is just "a couple of crims" eh? You know that for a fact?
I can't decide whether you're being deliberatley dense or just plain dishonest.

KG said...

*deliberately*
bloody typos.

KG said...

I do love the "loony fringe sites" dig, btw. Perhaps you could point us to your own sane mainstream site, PM?

Oh, that's right--you don't even have a site.

Psycho Milt said...

Zen: obviously they're both national security issues, and I'd be surprised if the SIS hadn't taken an interest in the Kuwaiti/Iraqi scumbags trying to rip off our passports. But there's still a fairly obvious difference between the cases from the diplomatic perspective.

KG: no, I haven't seen the SIS files on the Israelis. But the govt has, and it promptly took action against the Israeli govt - bit of a giveaway, surely?

Re the "loony fringe" sites, that's directed more at Midnight Sun. But there really would be no point in me arguing this at either place, would there? I mean, we're talking here about sites that considered the question "Why did Clark take action against the Israeli govt in this case?", considered two options:

1. The SIS found evidence of Israeli govt involvement

or

2. Clark hates Yids

and decided the correct answer was more likely to be "2."

NB: I am the owner of two blogs: No Minister and No Blog Here. All you had to do was click for my profile. No Minister's certainly had its share of people claiming its a loony fringe site, so I'm reasonably blase about it.

KG said...

I was wrong about the sites. My mistake.
And yes, #2 is by far the more likely answer, given that clark is a commie feminazi from 'way back. It's entirely ideologically consistent.
And since she's been happy enough to cuddle up to the Iranians. And her former foreign minister was happy enough to hold hands with Yasser Arafat.
The list goes on.

ZenTiger said...

Morning PM. Only 2 options? You aren't re-framing the debate are you:-)

Option 3: They decided that the Israelis *might* be using the passports for nefarious purposes, and that was enough to raise an un-diplomatic response.

Option 4: They were severely embarrassed that NZ Passports were so easily minted and decided to kick up a huge fuss just to take the heat off them.

They calculated they could raise enough Nationalistic outrage by fingering the Exclusive Brethren, oops, I mean, the Jews that Labour would come smelling like roses, even as other groups were producing NZ passports in quantities as great as Pledge Cards.

In the words of Clare Curran: The debate needed to be reframed to position the Government's response as "sensible" and isolate the ...

And we have seen from NZ Labour that they absolutely do their best to re-frame the debate and marginalize their opponents.

Options 3 and 4 are, based on NZ Labour's behaviour on other issues, just as likely as the 2 reasons you offered up.

It might all be politics as usual, but it does seem to pin Helen's flag to the mast. And it's the Jolly Roger.

dad4justice said...

psycho milt , as you know I am a regular at your No Minister blog . Are you insinuating that I belong to a lunatic fringe group ? I thought you were the leader singer and I was the lead guitar boyo ? What are you talking about as my head hurts ? What ward are in again ?

Psycho Milt said...

Zen, I'll grant you your options 3 & 4 are as likely as my option 2, ie extremely unlikely, but that's about as far as it goes. Option 3's problem is that it would involve not only the govt picking a fight with a foreign govt for no reason, but also no-one at Foreign Affairs or the SIS leaking the facts. And option 4's unlikely not only for the same reasons as number 3, but also because it wouldn't explain why they kept their noses out of the other case.

There is of course KG's "commie feminazi" explanation, but I'm sure you'll forgive me for not finding it compelling.

And Dad4Justice: I don't think "insinuating" comes into it...

dad4justice said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
KG said...

Of course you wouldn't find it compelling PM. The fact that Klark has been a commie since her university days and is er..somewhat less than female would fly right under any lefty's radar.
Deny reality all you like, but you lot on the left feel more affinity for islamist thugs than for Israel.
Yeah, yeah I'm generalising. But the examples I gave above of Klark and Goff cuddling up to them are a pretty fair indication of the left's attitudes.
We know exactly why the disparity in reactions over the passports and you can weasel and bullshit all you like--it just illustrates exactly what you are.

Psycho Milt said...

That's exactly the problem, KG - you write as though the business of govt is all about who one feels affinity with, as though we were ruled by absolute monarchs or nihilist dictators. We're not. Most likely Clark and her pals will be out of power by this time next year, and a very similar National Party crowd will be running things. Do you think this new crowd would overlook the SIS reporting a foreign govt carrying out criminal acts against us, just because the new guys have "affinity" with that foreign country? Dream on. If they did give that foreign govt a free pass to f*ck us over, it would be leaked to the media within days, and the Opposition would be roasting them over a slow fire. Left or right, no govt enjoys that.

Re the general thrust of your comment, no we lefties generally don't much like Israeli govts. But as usual, your enthusiasm for false dichotomies requires the outcome that we must therefore support unsavoury dictatorships among the Israelis' neighbours. Non sequitur.

Psycho Milt said...

Sorry, forgot this bit:
"We know exactly why the disparity in reactions over the passports..."

The thing is, we don't know, do we? We do know that if the SIS draws the govt's attention to unfriendly activity by a foreign govt, our govt has to act. We also know that in the absence of such evidence, the govt should keep its nose out of the courts' business. That would explain the difference entirely adequately and is in fact by far the most plausible explanation. Anyone wishing to pose paranoid fantasies as an alternative explanation has a fairly significant problem with evidence, don't you think?

KG said...

"..you write as though the business of govt is all about who one feels affinity with.."
Hardly.
This government's record as far as honesty goes is appalling and you'll notice I have said nothing in support of National--because I don't have "affinity with" any political party.
Don't bother with the patronising tone, PM.
Effectively we are run by dictators--a law passed against the wishes of 84% of the population and retrospective laws to legitimise theft by the government make them dictators in all but name. All arguments about the merits of various political parties are arguments over the particular flavour and degree of dictatorship we have to endure for three year periods.
Elections are no more than theatre and have bugger-all to do with true representation.
And you misrepresent my position over the passports.
Both the government and the media gave wildly disproportionate attention to the two cases. In Klark's case I believe it was due to her anti-Israel and pro-Arab stance, entirely consistent with her ideology and her history. The fact that the M.E. criminals have been allowed to stay in NZ reinforces that perception.
Don't give me that crap about the courts acting independently, either. The judicial system has been politicised under this government to an extent never seen before--just try committing any of the offences that were found to be "not in the public interest" to prosecute yourself and let's see how long you stay out of court.
And I don't forget that this government had a person jailed for sedition, either.

I used to think you at least argued in good faith PM but Redbaiter was right--you're simply another dishonest lefty.

KG said...

"..But as usual, your enthusiasm for false dichotomies requires the outcome that we must therefore support unsavoury dictatorships among the Israelis' neighbours."
But you do. This government has given taxpayer's money to Hamas and the PLO, Goff visited Arafat and held hands, Klark hosted Iranian government ministers....
What would you call that? A principled stance?

Grant S said...

"I used to think you at least argued in good faith PM but Redbaiter was right--you're simply another dishonest lefty"

You sound quite surprised KG - all Leftists are exactly what you subscribe them to be; snake oil merchants, the lot of them .. jealous, haters and wreckers masquerading behind a mask of compassion.

Sean said...

ZenTiger, I can't believe this post. You have linked to "The Midnight Sun" !?! What happened to the pragmatic, sensible, well-reasoned ZenTiger we have come to know?

Psycho Milt - thanks for bringing some common sense to this tread.

dad4justice said...

How can psycho milt have common sense when he or she supports a government extremely well versed in the art of deception and corruption . Just look at the disgraceful actions from those in this moronic liarbore government over the last year . Is it any wonder we are the laughing stock of the world . No it is not ! The repair job after the liars are destroyed will take decades to fix .

ZenTiger said...

Merry Christmas to you Sean.

Let me just say that somewhere between the law of common sense(TM) and the handshake of Arafat, comes the not so radical desire to see justice done and crimes to be punished, and in proportion to how we punish others.

You may see sites like Midnight Sun as radical, but Labour under Helen Clark and the Greens not under Rod Donald appear to be increasingly in that category of "what happened to the pragmatic and sensible" parties of the NZ Left. After Clark's handling of the EFB, I'm thinking you are looking in the wrong direction here.

I do agree that Psycho's contribution was valuable, but really only looks at one side of the equation. There were other factors that lead to bigger questions:

The New Zealand detective on the Ajeil-Sultan case, Simon Williamson, testified in court yesterday that he was blocked by his superiors from going to Kuwait to look into the alleged mastermind of the forgery plot, Salam Abu-Shaaban.

The assumption of balance cannot be made if the evidence is not gathered when it patently should be. As I said earlier, it would be SOP to run with three degrees of separation. Making this a black and white issue (black=direct Israeli links, white = unknown links, therefore nothing to worry about) is not a common sense(TM) approach.

Going soft on the culprits after jailing a Kiwi for sedition seems to be an act of injustice.

The culprits have claimed stress and depression for being caught doing illegal activities. Well Duh. Maybe they should have joined a Union that could have put them on a stress management program?

Anyway, this is not a discussion to have on this day.

Today, I'm happy for there to be peace and goodwill to all people.

Merry Christmas. Reflect, repent, rejoice, and repast!

Sean said...

D4J - good point though technically I said Psycho Milt brought common sense to the thread - rather than referring to it in the more general sense, relating to his other views. In saying that though at least PM can argue his views in a sensible, non-moronic way which is mostly a good read even if I often disagree....which is a lot more than I can say for many other commentators - right or left.

ZenTiger - merry Christmas also. Like the (TM). Also liked how you dealt to that Pat on the 17-Dec "FNFFA History and Code of Conduct Rules" post. He was a bit simple.

dad4justice said...

Sean , point taken and I agree PM can argue in a "sensible , non- moronic way" ,which is a skill that is much more effective than simple vitriolic rhetoric . I must adopt a new strategy because repugnant socialism has reached saturation point in kiwiland . We must act before society hits ground zero.

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