Sunday, May 9, 2010

Lucia Anglicans argue that having too many kids breaks the commandment to not steal

The Anglican Church [of Australia] wants Australians to have fewer children and has urged the federal government to scrap the baby bonus and cut immigration levels.

The General Synod of the Anglican Church [of Australia] has issued a warning that current rates of population growth are unsustainable and potentially out of step with church doctrine - including the eighth commandment "thou shall not steal", Fairfax newspapers say.

In a significant intervention, the Anglican Public Affairs Commission has also warned concerned Christians that remaining silent "is little different from supporting further overpopulation and ecological degradation".
I'm just stunned.

Related link : Anglicans argue for fewer kids ~ Sydney Morning Herald

21 comment(s):

Matthew said...

I am not a Catholic but I have to say this is absolutely shocking from the Anglican leadership. My personal opinion is that they are not Chistians - they are worshipping the created things, not the creator. That makes them guilty of idolatry and outside of the Christian faith.

With those who do not claim to be Christians I try to be a little more graceful, but with people who claim to be Christians, I reserve Jesus' harshest words:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

It is a pity they are not Catholics, the Pope could excommunicate them instantly.

Zomb13chimp said...

Every female Anglican has already passed menopause, what's the deal? All the lesbians in the world with turkey basters won't keep them from becoming extinct by 2042. Oh, they mean too many wogs.

ZenTiger said...

Thou shalt not steal???

When one forgoes principles, then any rationalisation is flawed.

So, who are the chosen few that would not be considered "stealing?"

Looks like they just want to recognise the first born.

They are not Anglicans, they are of the religion of the environment.

I.M Fletcher said...

That is just weird. The population growth is not unsustainable. With the addition of more people, it means there are more to plant, grow, harvest, and produce food.

When population growth is talked about, it's like some people think that a new person is just another mouth to feed. Most every new person grows up and contributes to society - they not only take, they give back.

KG said...

hmmm...not quite true. Or perhaps a little more complicated than that Fletch.
Australia's population is concentrated around the coastlines and those areas aren't capable of supporting massive population growth. Apart from the problems of infrastructure (dams, power generation etc) there's also the matter of quality of life. People need to be able to get away from the 'madding crowd' occasionally.
More ain't always better.

Lucia Maria said...


Except Australia is not experiencing massive population growth even now. What's their fertility rate - looks like 1.969, according to Wikipedia. That doesn't even generate enough people to replace the current population, therefore to maintain a reasonable standard of living, immigration is very necessary.

I truly believe that every person is a gift from God. That a supposed Christian denomination is saying that the creation of a human life is "stealing" ... that's just so wrong, it's totally evil.

KG said...

Lucyna, current projections are that under the present immigration policies- and given the birthrates of immigrants-Australia's population could double to somewhere around 50+ million within 25 years.
That's a massive increase.

I have no problem with skilled immigrants but there are drivers behind the calls for increased immigration which have nothing to do with importing skills and everything to do with changing the political landscape and propping up the real-estate market.

People look at the sheer size of Australia and make the simplistic judgement that there's plenty of room. Well, without massive investment in power and water supplies there simply isn't.

There seems to be an assumption that bigger/more is always better--yet NZ, with a tiny population was once the envy of the world for her living standards and harmonious society.

As for the Anglicans...they seem to be a collection of greenies, loonies, pacifists and moral relativists. They're the religion you have when you don't want to frighten the agnostics. Why would anybody take any notice of what they say?

Ciaron said...

I'm Anglican. Tar me with this brush?

KG said...

I'm going by the pronouncements of Anglican Church leaders Ciaron.

ZenTiger said...

Ciaron, that's why I said they were not acting as Anglicans.

I think these particular people are too focused on the environmental impact of people (which needs addressing) but at the expense of the humanity of people (which must never be forgotten).

Ciaron said...

I'm sorry guys, I over reacted.

Skim reading posts after a poor nights sleep and before morning coffee distorts one's perception somewhat.

I honestly thought the criticism was of the entire Anglican faith, which I did think was very out of character. so: my bad, withdraw and apologize. :)

KG said...

No, I should have made it plain I was talking about some of the leadership. No apology called for.

Lucia Maria said...

No need to apologise to me, either. Just looking at my post, I can see that it's not entirely clear.

I'll modify it.

Matthew said...

KG, the immigration issue isn't what Lucyna is talking about; it's the birthrate. On that basis a replacement rate of 1.96 definately does not equal a population of 50 million.

Do you actually know the birth rate of the immigrant population in Australia?

KG said...

I know perfectly well what Lucyna was talking about.
Whether the population increase comes from immigrants or live births is immaterial to the question of sustainability.
Most estimates I've seen deal with the birthrates of immigrants from Middle-Eastern countries and that hovers around the 3.5 mark.

MK said...

What KG said is 100% right, the cities in Australia are beyond capacity and we're pretty much living cheek to jowl here. I'm hoping to get the !@$% outta here in a few years because i know governments aren't going to do a damn thing about it.

It is a big country, but without massive investment, it'll remain empty, our socialist governments have neither the money nor the brains to think big. Sadly it's a reflection on the voters too, i can assure you that the voters will always choose government services over the future growth.

None the less, I don't think the church should be telling people to have fewer children, as those who would listen would be mainly Anglicans so it's like shooting yourself in the ass. And it's not like the leftie governments of Australia are going to listen to the church or something, that's just pure fantasy.

ZenTiger said...

I got the impression the post was nothing to do with the birth rate Matthew.

It was the rationalisation of "Thou shalt not steal" and everything that flows from that thought.

Sustainability is a huge issue, and in particular, water is a topic of importance for most Australians, but linking children to "stealing" to justify whatever the Anglican spokesperson above think they are justifying (forced abortions?) is a step too far.

Lucia Maria said...

Actually, the post has everything to do with the birth rate.

A population that reproduces below replacement level WILL need immigrants to sustain itself, otherwise it will go backwards. It's all to do with needing a certain number of people working to support an aging population and government services. If there aren't enough young people working, there won't be investment in the growth necessary to support a larger population.

Countries that have low birthrates rely on immigrants to keep their standard of living going. In doing so, they risk being overrun by immigrants with different values. The weaker the values of the country, the more dangerous this becomes.

Look at Britain and various European countries to see where this is going. The greenie, can't have any children brigade are killing themselves off by not reproducing, and in order to keep the country going, the government allows massive immigration.

Now this subject upsets me alot, so it's hard to remain coherent. The idea that human beings are a blight on the planet and should limit their population is an evil idea that leads to even greater evils than just asking parents to not have children.

The only people who have a right to say how many children a couple should have are the couple themselves.

Every child is a blessing.

If a country cannot cope with the number of people they have, those people will leave. It's a natural thing that has occurred since time immemorial.

We left Australia because living in an apartment with two boys got too much for us, and the houses in the area were just too expensive.

ZenTiger said...

Different perspectives, but all leading to the same place:

The idea that human beings are a blight on the planet and should limit their population is an evil idea that leads to even greater evils than just asking parents to not have children.

But having children is "stealing". So, thief, take this abortion pill as punishment...

Ciaron said...

The only people who have a right to say how many children a couple should have are the couple themselves.

I slightly disagree.

I think the only thing that should dictate how may children a couple have is the ability of said couples bank account to support the children.

I think it becomes theft when parents cease being nett tax payers (in the long term, not temporarily un-employed) and/ or career beneficiary's expecting the state to take up the slack.

Matthew said...

Hi KG, then birthrate of women living in Australia is 1.96, regardless of the ethnicity. Sure one segment has an ethnicity that produces 3.5 in another region but it doesn't automatically translate to another country. The cost of living in western countries contributes to a lower birthrate as well as (sadly) other factors like abortion. Like I said 1.96 will not result in 50 million. In fact Australia's population will decline with immigration.

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