Monday, June 1, 2009

ZenTiger Those who live by the sword

George Tiller is dead. Murdered in cold blood. I'm sure George would be the first to agree that it is sad when a life is forcibly terminated.

Murder is never justified, except in self defence. Although it wasn't a near term baby that wielded this gun, it was a fully grown adult, capable of making an informed decision. Unless he was insane. Surely, it is the mark of an insane person to cold bloodily murder a helpless human?

We have now a male suspect who may have killed him simply because Dr Tiller specialised in late term abortions. What's the world coming too when the peaceful abortionist cannot practice his trade - some 60,000 terminations according to his own tally.

Dr Tiller never had a chance, gunned down attending his Church, and the only comfort his loving wife and four grown children have is that his murderer will be brought to justice.

Whilst Dr Tiller's death marks a sad moment in the Abortion debate, I hope the pro-abortion movement do not seek to elevate Dr Tiller to iconic status, like Martin Luther King (ahem) or perhaps Che Guevara. His profession is not one that defines Human Rights, but instead only casts light on the dark idea that life only counts outside the womb. Dr Tiller's job was to ensure that the living entered the world dead.

Leaving aside the debate on therapeutic abortions, it was the late term abortions for both depression and for babies with suspected abnormalities, performed up to a day before the due date that gained the anger of the more radical parts of the pro-life movement.

I'm bracing for the more radical pro-abortion and not so radical pro-abortion groups to conflate the actions of a single person with the pro-life movement. We shall see, I guess.

I deplore his murder, but am not surprised by it. Those that live by the sword, unfortunately tend to die by the sword.



Dr George Tiller, Late Term Abortionist Specialist

MacDoctor: Murdering the Murderer
Lindsay Mitchell: Shocking Death

Related Link: Tiller Murdered

35 comment(s):

KG said...

I can't bring myself to deplore his murder or condemn the person responsible.
The only difference between this man and Mugabe or a Stalin is that his victims had no voice.

ZenTiger said...

I struggled with maintaining a balanced view. I think I did pretty well, all things considered.

Stripe said...

Killing in self defence is not murder.

AphexMandelbrot said...

> Those that live by the sword, unfortunately tend to die by the sword.

Yeah. Being a doctor is living by the sword.

With luck, the killer will be greeted upon death with 72 virg-

Wait. That's the other extremist religion. Sorry. Easy to mix those up.

Psycho Milt said...

Any other true-but-irrelevant statements to offer, Stripes? Sex with consent is not rape, perhaps? Acceptance of a gift freely given is not theft? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush?

You bet the pro-abortion movement will have a field day with this Zen, and good luck to them. Given that they get accused of supporting murder from your side all the time, they're hardly going to look a gift horse in the mouth, are they? The net effect this particular murderer is going to have will be in the form of propaganda ammunition for the other side - hopefully it's a thought he'll ponder when he's on death row.

Psycho Milt said...

Maybe you don't get death for murder in Kansas, I wouldn't know. I do know that Tiller was not a murderer, unlike the guy who killed him, because murder is defined by the law, not some asshole with a handgun's personal opinion.

ZenTiger said...

What, you get death for murder now? What is the world coming to?

Aphex, I'm not sure this is a religious issue. The suspect is a white male. The evidence is fairly clear then that all other white males are probably just as murderous.

Even Dr Tiller was a white male, and he had a few notches himself.

I think this is an "all white male" movement and we need to hunt down other white males and abort them.

Unless they are a type of white male that dislike Huns. You think Tiller was a Hun? Tiller the Hun?

Perhaps by reputation only? That's the trouble with stereotyping.

ZenTiger said...

Sorry PM (and readers), my comment ended up after your reply because I accidentally posted it before finishing it, and moving it was the only way of editing it.

To continue the point...

Yep, I agree. Legally, Tiller was not a murderer, and he escaped those charges in any event. The guy that shot him is a murderer. It will be on his head that some babies might be born that don't deserve to live. That might be the death penalty. Given the case profile, it's going to be at least 20 years.

ZenTiger said...

Doesn't bring back the dead though, does it?

KG said...

Oh well, just so long as Tiller wasn't legally a murderer, that's ok then.
Politicians may define what is and is not legal, but they sure as hell don't define morality. Which is just as well, given their own status in that regard...

Nick C said...

Im sure both sides of the debate can at least agree on one thing:

This killing is a bit like a really really late term abortion.

KG said...

lol!

Psycho Milt said...

Nothing funnier than a murder victim, right? Class act.

KG: not "legally" murder is the only kind of 'not murder' there is. You may prefer a scenario in which Asshole and his handgun get to decide who's a murderer and carry out summary executions accordingly, but the overwhelming majority of us fail to share the ugly fantasy.

mzala said...

PsychoMilt: "I do know that Tiller was not a murderer, unlike the guy who killed him, because murder is defined by the law..... ". In the USA,if a pregnant woman is killed/murdered and her baby dies, her assailant/the murderer is charged with double homicide i.e. the 'taking' of 2 lives. I'm sure you'll agree that the law is an ass. Incidentally, take a look at any scan of a 21 week plus foetus. Can anyone honestly say that it is not a human being in the foetal state of development?

Tiller needs our prayers and so does his killer.

ZenTiger said...

Nothing funnier than a murder victim, right?
Sadly, the only thing funnier is when we don't even count them as murder victims.

As for the legality of murder, it's not just the asshole with a handgun, but the bastard with the legislative pen, or the pedantic judge more concerned with law than justice that makes a mockery of the dream you call civilised society.

If the law was that important, then the findings that most abortions in this country were actually illegal would count for something. All it will count for is a quick change of law plus some retrospective validation so that it's business as usual.

That to me seems to be even uglier (and murder is indeed ugly).

MK said...

I heard some leftists are calling for a national day of mourning for this fellow. I wouldn't be surprised, if they put him up for sainthood soon.

Nice one Nick C.

KG said...

Psycho, save me your mealy-mouthed posturing.
Leftists such as you excuse mass-murder by your heroes of the left (hell, a lot of you even wear T shirts glorifying them).
You wriggle and weasel and slime your way around the fact that the ideology you adhere to is responsible for millions of deaths, for the breakdown of traditional family life, for the killing of mllions of unborn children, for the destruction of anything resembling a decent education, for the destruction of cultures even as you glorify multiculturalism.
And you have the effing nerve to imply that I share an "ugly fantasy" about the "asshole with a handgun".
God knows, if I did it would be far, far less damaging than anything slimy apologists for the above have wreaked on our world. You support the left and don't even have the courage and integrity to own the history and the consequences of that, bleating and pleading that it's not your particular brand of leftism.
It is. It's all yours. Compared to the likes of you,misguided as he may be, the man who gunned down the killer of 60,000 humans is a principled pest exterminator.

Psycho Milt said...

You support the left and don't even have the courage and integrity to own the history and the consequences of that, bleating and pleading that it's not your particular brand of leftism.

Just as you don't "own" the millions of deaths caused by the right-wingers of history as it's not your particular brand of rightism. Well, duh.

Zen: we all know laws we personally wouldn't have written like that or interpreted like that. Living with other humans has its drawbacks.

MK: I heard some rightists are praising this murderer and making jokes about his victim. I wouldn't be surprised if they put him up for a sainthood soon.

Anonymous said...

PM
What is this "law" you have so much faith in?

ZenTiger said...

PM, if your response to my point that we have an abortion law that is being deliberately flouted, with zero consequences to the medical professionals signing off on abortions is "Living with other humans has its drawbacks then surely whatever point you care to make about "an asshole with a hand gun" can be met with the same comment?

It's instructive to see the law is very willing to handle one asshole with a hand-gun and yet can provide for a fetus to be crushed and dismembered without an anesthetic, mere days before natural birth.

I'm not sure hiding behind the law makes the latter any more palatable.

Psycho Milt said...

Mr Tips: if you're unfamiliar with "law," you can easily acquire first-hand acquaintance with it by punching the next policeman you see in the face.

Zen: By "living with other humans has its drawbacks" I meant only that there will always be laws we don't agree with. If people don't like legitimately-formulated law or the way it's being interpreted, they get to campaign to have it altered, and that's about it. Like democracy, it's the crappiest approach - with the exception only of all the other approaches. Whether abortion should be permitted or not by the law is open to dispute, as we've all noticed; whether shooting doctors should be permitted or not isn't likely to be ever open to dispute, except by a few terrorists and their sympathisers.

ZenTiger said...

There is no dispute though that the occasional nutter will flip out and break the law.

That was the point of my post. There's no dispute the law will not always protect people going about legally terminating lives.

It's sad, but I guess those are the consequences we have to live with in a civilised society.

Anonymous said...

PM: but the law is devised by humans. Why should I obey it, especially if I don't agree with it?
Because some guy in a blue suit says so?

And as for it being a yardstick, tell that to Helen Clark, OJ Simpson and any other devious minded and clever person who has carefully cut a path with words through it to escape conviction. The law is nothing without a higher motive to define it.

Where would such a motive come from?

mzala said...

PM: Solzhenitsyn 1978 Harvard address is a good read esp. about Western society and law.

Stripe said...

Just to be clear, "Self defense is not murder" was not aimed at the Tiller case. Tiller was murdered and should not have been.

The original blog said, "Murder is never justified, except in self defence". I just wanted to point out that self defence is not an exception for murder because it is not murder.

Sorry for the confusion. :)

ZenTiger said...

Thanks Stripe, I should have used the word "killing" instead.

I think it a bad idea to go around killing people (even if it's legal) although in circumstances that require self defence, it is perfectly understandable.

Psycho Milt said...

The law is nothing without a higher motive to define it.

Annoying though it may be, the law is all we've got when trying to decide who's a murderer and who isn't. Anything else is a matter of personal opinion (absolutely, 100% inclusive of "God said so").

Psycho Milt said...

Stripe: apologies, I assumed you were somehow trying to claim shooting Tiller was self-defence.

Kneeling Catholic said...

Hey Psycho!

come on over to my blog and explain why President Bush was the best at protecting abortionists!

kneelingcatholic.blogspot.com

Sean said...

Whaleoil's comment on Kiwiblog, sums this up in a graphical but simple manner:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/06/rip_george_tiller.html#comment-568297

Psycho Milt said...

Sean: I guess it's a pity that it wasn't Whaleoil's delusional-fantasy George Tiller who was murdered but the real-life George Tiller - otherwise, his comment would have had some kind of a point.

Kneeling Catholic: it would be nice if I could say fewer abortionists were killed under Bush because he was so much more effective at combatting terrorism, but in this instance I think it's more likely because he was giving the terrorists what they wanted.

ZenTiger said...

We all have our delusions PM. Believing that Tiller only killed fetuses that were not terminal or severely abormal is one of them.

It also seems likely he did conduct partial birth abortions and certainly abortions on babies due within days of his "operation".

From one of his advocates:

Nebraska-based abortion practitioner LeRoy Carhart will take over the Wichita, Kansas abortion center formerly run by slain late-term abortion practitioner George Tiller.

Carhart is most well known for his role in a Supreme Court case concerning a ban on partial-birth abortions.

Carhart and Tiller are longtime friends and associates and Carhart told the Nebraska State Paper that he would make sure late-term abortions continue at Tiller's abortion center, which his closed this week following his shooting death on Sunday.

Despite operating without a proper permit and putting women's health at risk, Amie Newman of the pro-abortion RH Reality Check blog applauded Carhart, saying he is "uplifting, positive and based in respect for women as human beings."

She called Carhart's continuing late-term and partial-birth abortions a "circle of care and compassion."

ZenTiger said...

Obviously, a slip of the tongue by Newman, she probably was referring to the good old days when they were legal.

And we come back to legalized killing, with the realistic suspicions that not all late term abortions conducted by Tiller fit the legal criteria. Proving that is difficult as autopsies were never required.

Sean said...

Apparently he has performed 60,000 abortions. That's 1,700 per year since 1974. Does that sound right? Seems way too much considering the 8+ hours in a working day.

Anyway, I know the Jewish people get upset when some other heinous crime is compared to the Holocaust, but few shed a tear when Hitler topped himself. How many can be upset now that Tiller is gone? I can think of 60,000 happy souls.

mzala said...

"A 34-year-old California man, Aaron Ashley was convicted of two counts of murder in the killings of his pregnant girlfriend and her unborn child". 5 June 2009 A.D.

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