Thursday, March 22, 2007

Lucia The EU Vultures are Circling over Poland

Here we go. The European Parliament is going to look at whether or not Poland's proposed new law to ban discussions of homosexuality in schools violates human rights.
"The disturbing proposals to outlaw discussion of homosexuality raise serious concerns about the commitment to fundamental rights in Poland," said MEP Kathalijne Buitenweg, a Green party member from the Netherlands, in a statement.

"It is shocking that the government of a modern European country would even consider such draconian legislation. The promotion of gay hatred is the antithesis of EU anti-discrimination rules and the Polish government must publicly reject this approach," said Buitenweg.
Well, considering the first "human rights" group started in Germany in the late 1800's to promote "gay rights" (then called "homosexual rights") and "gay rights" is also promoted under the umbrella of "human rights" today, I'd say Poland's proposed new law does violate "human rights" on the basis of knocking out "gay rights".

Now I've been holding back on writing on this topic, for the reason being that I, like many people, feel that it's now not socially acceptable to publicly question and disapprove of "gay rights". I have been posting a bit, despite this sense of unease, but recently I came across a book called The Pink Swastika that has galvanised me to really get into this subject in a more aggressive way.

I find it deeply disturbing that Poland, who was attacked by a country lead by sexual deviants in 1939, now looks like being attacked by the whole European union in defence of sexual deviancy under the guise of "tolerance". If you haven't read the book The Pink Swastika and you are younger than eighty or so, you won't have realised that the Nazi leaders were mostly gay. Right up until the late 60's it was well known by the world that that Nazi leaders were mostly gay. That is until the "gay rights" movement gathered steam in the 70's and have somehow managed to wipe out the gayness of the Nazis from public memory.

I have heard people say many times that it doesn't matter what a person does in the bedroom, that this doesn't affect how they are as a human being. Well, the Nazis put lie to that theory and that's probably why their gay history has been almost wiped clean.

I still haven't been able to read the entirety of Rising '44 - The Battle for Warsaw - it's like being in the depths of Hell. If anyone wants to know the depths of depravity that sexual deviants can stoop to, and has a strong stomach, I recommend the book as well as The Pink Swastika. I always wondered what type of man would order the massacre of a population and then a destruction of a city when the Germans were so obviously loosing the war at that point that it would have made more sense to withdraw and defend German territory.

All of this makes General Pace's comments on immorality in the military and the consequent attacks by liberals and "gay rights" activists all the more ominous. For in Germany, once the Nazis got hold of the military, everything went down hill very quickly. For the same thing to happen to the US military would be beyond disastrous. It would be catastrophic.

Related Link: European Parliament To Examine Polish Anti-Gay Law

UPDATE: Some readers are offended by this post. Or don't believe that what The Pink Swastika has to say could possibly be true. I challenge those people to read the book first before commenting. At least you then you won't be commenting from a position of ignorance.

I'll leave you with a paragraph from the book on how well known the link between homosexuality and Nazis was in the past:

In the 1960s, Nazi homosexuality was so widely acknowledged in America (at least among the “social elites”) that the portrayal of Nazi thugs as homosexual was a frequent occurrence in Hollywood movies. One of the best examples is in Exodus (United Artists, 1960), the film adaptation of the Leon Uris novel about the creation of the State of Israel after World War II. In the film, actor Sal Mineo, playing a young man attempting to join the Irgun (the Jewish underground movement), fails to convince Irgun leaders that he is a genuine Nazi concentration camp survivor. Finally they are convinced — only when he breaks down and confesses that the Nazi guards “used me as a woman.” To the Irgun, this was definitive proof that he had been a Nazi prisoner.

22 comment(s):

Dave said...

Hi there. I am super-confused by what you are driving at here. Are meant to understand the below:

"I have heard people say many times that it doesn't matter what a person does in the bedroom, that this doesn't affect how they are as a human being. Well, the Nazis put lie to that theory and that's probably why their gay history has been almost wiped clean."

...to mean that you see a causal link between homosexuality and the Nazis?

By extension, are you suggesting that homosexuality causes Nazi-like behaviour - if what you are asserting about the Nazis (ie 3 out of 5 of their leadership were gay), surely the logical inference is that the Nazi culture encouraged homosexuality, rather than the converse.

Dave

lloydois said...

Don't hold back Lucyna. Can I suggest you go back to Poland where this type of bigotry is in vogue.

"I have heard people say many times that it doesn't matter what a person does in the bedroom, that this doesn't affect how they are as a human being. Well, the Nazis put lie to that theory"

Personally I find this pretty offensive stuff. And I suspect you are holding back on what you really think.

To parse this rubbish would take more time than I have now but I think it's just better I disinfect you from my bookmarks and let you dribble on into your lonely dotage.

Blah doesn't quite sum it up and I'm really quite surprised you're slumming it down here Zen Tiger

Lucyna said...

Yes, let's just call it bigotry and ignore the rest of it, lloydois.

Let's just ignore all those gays (and there were a number) who protested at what the Nazis were doing and found themselves dead.

Sb said...

Both the reviews at Amazon and at this web site http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/8706/

pretty much show how much of a piece of homophobic crap the Pink Swastika is.

The website is very hard to read seemingly being a conversion of .DOC into html. Here is one excerpt that caught my eye

The Pink Swastika is full of rumors about
homosexuality of various persons. A man's wife and
children mean nothing if some disreputable past
author can be cited as a source for an allegation
of homosexuality. That Hermann Goering liked
exotic clothes and improved the appearance of his
face with makeup is sufficient to brand him
homosexual, despite his undoubted devotion to both
his wives and his daughter. Rudolph Hess is not
saved by his wife and children, nor is Hans Frank.
Herschel Grynszpan, the Jewish youth who shot
Ernst vom Rath in Paris in 1938, giving the Nazis
an excuse for the "Crystal Night" anti-Jewish
pogrom, is painted as a homosexual prostitute,
even though nothing about homosexuality was ever
uncovered or mentioned until his defense attorney
used it as a successful ploy to postpone
indefinitely his trial for murder.

Sorry Lucyna if you really want to know about what happened in Poland you need to keep away from right wing trash like this.

Sb

Dave said...

Lucyna, I return to my original point, one which you have ignored. It may well be that the upper echelons of Nazidom had a predilection for homosexuality - this is something I have no inclination to delve into - but the more sinister intimation here is that homosexuality might actually CAUSE Nazi-like behaviour.

Are you happy that things are left vague enough in your post for us to simply infer your opinion, or do you intend to actually tell us what you think?

Specifically, I am interested in what relevance you think homosexuality has to Nazism, in the context of Poland's proposed banning of the discussion of homosexuality in schools. I fail to see a link at all, and I find the tacit suggestion that homosexuality encourages fascist behaviour to be abhorrent.

Dave

Lucyna said...

Dave, the answers you seek are too complex for me to be able to summarise in a blog comment.

You are correct though, that I do think there is something in homosexuality which leads to Nazism or the equivalent.

You only have to look at the link that Redbaiter gave on the other blog post to see a connection.

I put a link on SH a while on gay rights activists putting forward a proposal to put a law in in New York to annul all marriages that do not produce children after three years. They said they were just trying to make a point, but their point was far more sinister if you then contrast their actions to the pure breeding programmes the Nazis tried to set up. There are gay people who just see heterosexuals as breeders and themselves as superior. This superiority was very apparent in Nazi Germany.

Read the book - it's there online, out in the open - that's why I gave the reference.

Dave said...

At least you have the courage to state your convictions, even if you aren't articulate enough to be able to express them (something tells me they'd be better off left unexpressed, Lucyna, lest you attract the wrong kind of crowd).

I have to concur with Lloydois - ZenTiger is slumming it here. Sir Humphrey's must have had a palliative effect on you Lucyna, as I don't recall you spouting anything remotely close to this form of rhetoric before.

Homosexuality encouraging Nazism indeed. While it is somewhat comforting to reflect on the fact that you represent a miniscule sliver of a percent of the population of NZ with your bizarre, extreme views, it is nonetheless deflating to realise that people still believe bollocks of this nature in the 21st century.

Again, abhorrent.

Dave

Lucyna said...

Dave, so now it becomes about me, rather than what actually happened just over 60 - 80 years ago. Typical when someone can't address the arguments, so attacks the person instead.

If I represent a tiny sliver of the population, then you'd better be very worried. I'm positive the Germans never saw Nazism coming either.

Though, on the up side, there are many, many grumblings against social engineering in NZ now, but whether those grumblings turn into action still remains to be seen.

As someone visiting from Oz remarked today, the battle in NZ is already lost. Personally, as the eternal optimist, I'm not sure if it's lost yet, but it could be.

Dave said...

Lucyna, your proposition that homosexuality somehow caused the Holocaust (that works as a reductio of your argument as outlined above) is a joke, plain and simple. If I am arguing 'ad hominem' it is purely because I have never, ever heard anyone express the idea that homosexuality is a gateway to fascism before.

Your opinion is so ludicrous that it beggars belief. I challenge you to find one co-author from Sir Humphreys (ZenTiger included) - to agree with you that homosexuality causes Nazi behaviour. You are doing yourself no favours in the intellectual stakes here - the blog is shaping up to be a soapbox for ugly, small-minded slurs and half-thought-through opinion.

The sandbox appears big enough for you and Redbaiter to play in though, I'm sure you'll have a ball.

Dave

Lucyna said...

Dave, it certainly wasn't a joke to the millions of people that died, even if you consider it one today.

Andrei said...

When all is said and done the Gay rights people pulled a really clever stunt when they equated being gay as the equivalent of being Black. Its not. If it is why isn't intolerance of pedofila, or bestiality or necrofilia similiarly violation of human rights?

The even coined a word Homophobic which they have succeeded in giving the same conotation as Rascist.

Now I don't give a damm what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom, its none of my business.

But it doesn't mean it is right or good for society.

And promoting immorality, which is where we have got to is not right and shutting down the ability of those who disagree with epithets like homophobic is just orwellian newspeak.

Poland is quite correct to leave sexual indoctrination out of the classroom and the EU trying to force its lack of values down Polands throats shows why the EU is doomed to failure in the long term

Ian said...

"If it is why isn't intolerance of pedofila, or bestiality or necrofilia similiarly violation of human rights?"

Well Andrei, if you can locate a consenting adult child, animal or corpse I'll concede your point - until then you're pushing it uphill.

Lucyna: what I find disturbing is your conviction that fascism is about sexual deviance. Life isn't a porn movie.

Spirit Of 76 said...

The Poles, and other former Eastern Bloc countries will be OK.

They didn't endure 50+ years of communism being forced upon them to all of a sudden give it all away to the neo-paganism that is social liberalism.

Lucyna said...

Ian, nowhere in my post have I mentioned fascism. I do mention Nazism, and yes, the Nazis were fascists in their own peculiar way, so I can see how you might have got confused. No, I'm specifically talking Nazism here.

Berend de Boer said...

Heh, I already thought Lucyna would be savaged over this post. And indeed, we have some people very upset.

I think the premise of this idea is simple: if homosexuality is caused by some distortion in someone's personality, it might lead to other effects.

I mean, no one would say a word if we replace homosexuality by Catholicism, wouldn't they?

And the same people who would normally wax for hours about selfish genes, are the same ones who don't want to know anything why certain genes do not want to be selfish and what other effects that might have.

Anyway, regardless if this is true, which I don't think is proven yet, it cannot be callously dismissed as if no such link could exist.

ZenTiger said...

I think I can add something useful to this discussion. Maybe that is why I'm here?

However, it will take me time to read the material, and comment. I'm thinking perhaps a few posts to bring something of my more moderate perspective to this.

And then we'll see where the conversation leads.

Equally, from my first reading, I don't believe Lucyna is using the "all" word in the way some are interpreting this. That said, I can see why people would be concerned that any hint of deviant behaviour from a person may have some kind of link back to homosexuality.

There may be a link here, but I'm not sure Lucyna is proposing "all men are rapists", although that is what people are eager to read into this to keep the conversation away from the substance.

Dave said...

Lucyna, not having the time or inclination to read the entire text of 'The Pink Swastika' (my enhanced bat-sense tipped me off that it may not be a work of great scholastic rigour) I skipped to the parts most relevant to your argument. Before discussing the text, we should recap.

You are arguing that because many Nazi leaders are alleged to have been homosexuals, that this somehow implies a reverse causation - homosexuality was a cause of fascism (although you claim that the concepts are too complex to be rendered into easily-understood blog-format). How this stands to reason is anyone's guess, as the logic contained in your contention "A number of people exhibiting quality A also exhibit quality B, thus quality B causes quality A" is desperately poor.

However, the text you so doggedly cleave to has a section called 'The Homosexual Roots of Fascism,' which one hopes would lay out a basis for your argument that homosexuality encourages fascist behaviour.

As an opener, nothing at all contained in this section actually suggests that homosexuality causes fascism. It may be that you take this idea from somewhere else in the text, and if so, throw me a bone and let me know where, so I don't have to wade through the whole thing.

The text begins with a conflation of fascism and socialism, which is more or less expected. Then comes the kicker - a 'correlation' between 'homosexuality and a mode of thinking we identify with Nazism'. What could this insidious and evil mode of thinking possibly be? Unbelievably, the authors identify Platonic philosophy. Plato, that 'male supremacist and apologist for pederasty,'
that advocate for 'man/boy sex' is fingered for laying the foundation stones for Nazism. What of course goes unstated is the number of other educational, legal, and philosophical institutions that must also necessarily be tainted by his immoral stain.

The authors go on to establish the period in which Plato lived as one 'dominated by a pederastic warrior cult,' no doubt intended to further impugn his character with the aim of demonstrating that his influence on world history and thought has actually been malign! Who would have thought, Plato is actually responsible for gaying up philosophy! The trickle-down effect of his immoral ways throughout history is conceivably immense. Or the authors are displaying the worst kind of emotive content-free reasoning - hmmm.

The authors continue trucking through a text by Eugene Weber, attempting to demonstrate ties between all the figures he identifies as formative in the Nazi ideology as reprehensible homosexuals - Frederick the Great and amusingly Nietzsche are both identified as undeniably homosexual. Bizarrely, it is the authors who are accusing the rest of the world's historians of revisionism.

Taken as a whole, the section of text is meant to suggest that the famous historical figures associated with the philosophies adopted by the Nazis were actually gay, and it was their very homosexuality which contributed to the formation of the Nazi brand of fascism.

Nevermind the fact that the claims of homosexuality are largely spurious, the logic involved here is terrible. The academic merit of the text is negligible, and I actually feel vaguely unclean from having read it all so closely.

I encourage you to respond Lucyna, and hopefully not simply with 'the concepts are too complex to be expressed'. I made the effort to read the text, perhaps you can help to clarify any possible basis for anyone to believe that homosexuality causes fascism.

Dave

Andrei said...

Ian said
"If it is why isn't intolerance of pedofila, or bestiality or necrofilia similiarly violation of human rights?"

Well Andrei, if you can locate a consenting adult child, animal or corpse I'll concede your point - until then you're pushing it uphill.


Conviently ignoring I also said I do not give a damm what consen5tintg Adults do to each other that is not my concern.

What is my concern is that adults who have given themselves authority over my children see fit to teach them that things that I consider harmful to them and behaviours that I consider not in their best interests to follow are acceoptable or even to be celebrated.

When pedofiles do this to children it is called 'grooming'. Perhaps the homosexual lobby is in the process of 'grooming' a whole generation to follow their deviancy.

Just a thought.

KG said...

"my enhanced bat-sense tipped me off that it may not be a work of great scholastic rigour"
wow! So we can substitute a quick scan for thorough reading if we have this enhanced bat sense? And criticise a person's comments (a person who has read the entire book) on that basis?
Where can we get hold of some Enhanced Bat Sense?
Nah...on second thoughts, I'll read the book when it arrives and decide what I think about the theory then.

Uroskin said...

As a gay man I'm only a Nazi in bed: I like to play Germany if you play Poland.

There are indeed a few gay men we'd rather not have in our club, such as Herr Roehm, Mr J Edgar Hoover, and that new poster boy for the childbeating brigade, Lindsay Perigo. But to try and tar "homosexuality" with "Nazism" is bollocks.

Brendon said...

Hang on... Lucyna you seem to be ignoring the fact that the Nazis actively persecuted homosexuals... from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum website http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005218 'Ministry officials expanded the category of "criminally indecent activities between men" to include any act that could be construed as homosexual'

I'd also refer you to Micheler (2004), p95-131 in Herzog (2004), available here http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=UZb5B_DGXuIC&dq=nazi+persecution+of+homosexuals&psp=1

The Nazis put homosexuals in concentration camps. Unless you're arguing some kind of Freudian viewpoint in which the Nazi leadership showed "reaction formation" and expressed the exact opposite of their true desires (Bennet, 2005, Abnormal and Clinical Psychology), then I don't see how it can be argued that homosexuality was in any way causal of Nazism.

Besides, even if it *is* true that the Nazi leadership *was* gay (which I far from convinced about), correlations don't prove causation. Maybe being a Nazi makes you gay (perhaps you should go along to the next White Power meeting and try suggesting that to them), or maybe there was one (or more) independent variable that caused both homosexuality and Nazism. Or, maybe it just happened by chance.

Lucyna said...

Brendon, I am not ignoring Nazi persecution of homosexuals. There was persecution, but persecution of individuals. The homosexuality laws allowed the Nazis to accuse any political enemy of homosexuality - whether they were or not was immaterial - in order to remove those people from society. Blackmail (via liaisons) was also a huge problem for the Nazi leadership, so a number of ex-paramours ended up in concentration camps - or died.

The book, The Pink Swastika, addresses this issue in the chapter on "The Persecution of Homosexuals".

Besides, even if it *is* true that the Nazi leadership *was* gay ... correlations don't prove causation.

I agree. However, Germany at the time was known for it's sexual immorality. The "German Vice" was also known to be homosexuality.

The Nazis seem to have merged the occult with homo-eroticism with a Hellenistic militaristic revival, where in order to become a stronger military unit, love of comrades was actively encouraged. So, it was more than just homosexuality by itself.

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