Last week I had an intense conversation on Crusader Rabbit about women volley-ballers having the choice to wear more than a bikini (or a full body-suit) due to pressure from more "conservative" countries who may have teams competing in the upcoming Olympic Games in London this year.
KG took the position that these "conservative" countries (most likely Islamic) have no right to tell us (ie the West) what to do; they should fit in with our conventions, especially since there is very little in the way of reciprocation from them with regards to what we expect to be able to do when in their countries.
In principle, I agree with his position to some extent when what we expect from them is reasonable and what they expect from us is unreasonable. However, I disagree that they are always wrong in what they ask for from us. Even a stopped watch is right twice a day, and in this case, asking that women be able to wear more than a bikini (and less than a full body suit) is reasonable and should not be dismissed out of hand just because of who is asking.
The problem with the bikini is that it is basically underwear invented by a French man who worked in his mother's underwear shop in the late 1940's. No respectable woman of that time would model his new invention for him, so he had to resort to hiring a stripper who had no qualms with wearing nothing at all, so the bikini was more than she was used to. Somehow along the way, women of the Western world have taken to this level of undress when swimming, hanging around on the beach ... and playing volleyball. However, the bikini causes men to look at a woman as if she is an object to be acted upon rather than a person who has control of her own actions, therefore wearing a bikini changes a woman in the mind of a man from a person to a thing.
Those 1940's French models had it right - no respectable woman should wear a bikini - and giving women a choice not to wear a bikini while playing volleyball is something all conservative men should endorse, no matter who raised the issue in the first place.
The first Conservative principle is that there is an enduring and eternal moral order. Veer off from this moral order and you get trouble. Go back to the moral order and society functions well. This moral order is not subject to relativism - what is true for Western Christendom will be true for any other society as well. Moral people are self-governing and therefore can more easily resist an overreaching government. Immoral people are more easily ruled by their appetites and passions and therefore can be manipulated into accepting more government control in their lives. So the moral order is vital. (see our about page for more)
In West, destruction of the moral order is clearly under-way, and if we need reminders from other cultures about what we used to believe then I would consider that God's way of helping us find our way again and keeping us humble. It's one thing to take advice from people you admire, it's a another completely to be "reprimanded" by those whom we find seriously lacking in other areas of life, and who find themselves unable to control themselves if their women aren't covered up like tents. But in this case, we should just suck it up, because those conservative countries are right.
Related link: Sorry chaps, there's a volleyball cover-up: Competitors can now wear shorts and T-shirts after complaints from conservative countries ~ Mail Online
KG took the position that these "conservative" countries (most likely Islamic) have no right to tell us (ie the West) what to do; they should fit in with our conventions, especially since there is very little in the way of reciprocation from them with regards to what we expect to be able to do when in their countries.
In principle, I agree with his position to some extent when what we expect from them is reasonable and what they expect from us is unreasonable. However, I disagree that they are always wrong in what they ask for from us. Even a stopped watch is right twice a day, and in this case, asking that women be able to wear more than a bikini (and less than a full body suit) is reasonable and should not be dismissed out of hand just because of who is asking.
The problem with the bikini is that it is basically underwear invented by a French man who worked in his mother's underwear shop in the late 1940's. No respectable woman of that time would model his new invention for him, so he had to resort to hiring a stripper who had no qualms with wearing nothing at all, so the bikini was more than she was used to. Somehow along the way, women of the Western world have taken to this level of undress when swimming, hanging around on the beach ... and playing volleyball. However, the bikini causes men to look at a woman as if she is an object to be acted upon rather than a person who has control of her own actions, therefore wearing a bikini changes a woman in the mind of a man from a person to a thing.
Men are more likely to think of women as objects if they have looked at sexy pictures of females beforehand, psychologists said yesterday.
Researchers used brain scans to show that when straight men looked at pictures of women in bikinis, areas of the brain that normally light up in anticipation of using tools, like spanners and screwdrivers, were activated.
Scans of some of the men found that a part of the brain associated with empathy for other people's emotions and wishes shut down after looking at the pictures.
Those 1940's French models had it right - no respectable woman should wear a bikini - and giving women a choice not to wear a bikini while playing volleyball is something all conservative men should endorse, no matter who raised the issue in the first place.
The first Conservative principle is that there is an enduring and eternal moral order. Veer off from this moral order and you get trouble. Go back to the moral order and society functions well. This moral order is not subject to relativism - what is true for Western Christendom will be true for any other society as well. Moral people are self-governing and therefore can more easily resist an overreaching government. Immoral people are more easily ruled by their appetites and passions and therefore can be manipulated into accepting more government control in their lives. So the moral order is vital. (see our about page for more)
In West, destruction of the moral order is clearly under-way, and if we need reminders from other cultures about what we used to believe then I would consider that God's way of helping us find our way again and keeping us humble. It's one thing to take advice from people you admire, it's a another completely to be "reprimanded" by those whom we find seriously lacking in other areas of life, and who find themselves unable to control themselves if their women aren't covered up like tents. But in this case, we should just suck it up, because those conservative countries are right.
Related link: Sorry chaps, there's a volleyball cover-up: Competitors can now wear shorts and T-shirts after complaints from conservative countries ~ Mail Online
When I see a man arguing for women to not have the choice to wear less revealing sports clothes, ie arguing for women to be forced to wear a few scraps of skin tight lycra, I'm suspicious about his motives from the get go.
ReplyDeleteReally I think the women playing the sport should decide what's comfortable to play in.
Nobody at CR argued for women not to have the choice to wear less revealing sports clothes.
ReplyDelete"Really I think the women playing the sport should decide what's comfortable to play in."
It seems they already do. Most players polled stated they were perfectly comfortable with the current arrangements.
At CR we took the position that islamist countries, when playing a Western sport in a Western country, should abide by the existing conventions of that country. We don't conflate the modesty issue with the issue of islamic imperialism.
"I'm suspicious about his motives from the get go."
And I'm suspicious of women who would impose their own standards of modesty on others.
"Sorry chaps, there's a volleyball cover-up: Competitors can now wear shorts and T-shirts after complaints from conservative countries"
ReplyDeletePoland's a pretty conservative country. Have they objected?
No, because they're not muslim. Call a spade a spade, LM.
For the last time, since the message doesn't seem to be getting in:
We don't give a damn about who wears what and how much they wear. We DO give a damn about a primitive ideology/cult/religion imposing it's ideas on the West.