Saturday, March 7, 2009

ZenTiger Child Mothers

A quick Google finds recently in Idaho a 10 year old was raped and subsequently gave birth to a healthy baby. The same again in Idaho with a 9 year old who subsequently had a baby girl.

Hopefully, all will be given the care they require to grow up and lead happy and healthy lives. Do you think they deserve that chance? Or do you think the babies should be, err, 'terminated'?

As for the rapists, hell is probably the right place for them. Until then, life in a maximum security prison will have to do.

This story isn't just about child mothers of course. It's about the outrage people are expressing because a Catholic Priest is against abortion, even if it be for a 9 year old girl expecting twins.

Yes, giving birth at that age is risky, and we would hope that such a case would provide such media attention that the poor girl receive the best possible medical care. We would hope that the situation is closely monitored and Doctors intervene to save the mother or children only when there seems to be no other option.

Because whilst it is a risk for the girl, it was certain death for the babies now that they have been aborted.

By the way, the youngest girl on record to give birth is apparently 5 years old.

I understand that cases like this can generate fierce debate because the situation is terrible to begin with, and there will be a range of medical opinions on the viability of the pregnancy. I agree, maybe that point was reached. The Priest genuinely seems to think it had not been reached, and the Doctors were too hasty.

Putting that aside, what I don't agree with though is the logic that just because a Catholic Priest argues for the chance for life for the babies, the Catholic Church gets labelled "girl haters" or "Catholic Taliban".

This is the same church that works so hard to defend the lives of females aborted in China and India, because the parents prefer boys.

The Church defends the sanctity of human life, all human life, including the unborn. A quick flick through the liberal blogs, and the reaction to the is much the same - high degrees of vitriol and condescension for some-one praying all three lives would be safe and saved.

It's a sad indictment on today's world when people increasingly fail to at least respect such a position, even if they don't agree with it.

Brazil Abortion for 9 year old victim of rape

Update: And twins born to a 10 year old

And further discussion: Child Mothers II

15 comment(s):

John Tertullian said...

It seems that an inevitable component of the pathology of the Unbelieving Mind is a manic insistence upon categorising some people as non-human or sub-human. We, for our part, are very thankful for the principled and biblical stand of the Roman Catholic Church on this issue.

Anonymous said...

My labelling "Catholic Taliban" was not the product of an unbelieving mind, but rather of a mind that like Jesus tends to dislike "whited sepulchres" and unlovely legalism in religion -- a characteristic shared by the Taliban and this decision, in my opinion.

ZenTiger said...

Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

The Priest has the opinion the life of the unborn has value. How you want to dice that up is up to you.

I've been commenting further on this view (and being hit around the ears for being a 'girl hater') on the other link (girl haters).

You might find the thread interesting.

Thanks for dropping in.

Lucia Maria said...

...but rather of a mind that like Jesus tends to dislike "whited sepulchres" and unlovely legalism in religion

Isn't it interesting how liberal believers constantly equate themselves to Jesus. What's up with that?

Tanya Stebbing said...

How about adoption, whatever happened to that sensible and workable option?

MathewK said...

Thanks for posting these.

Funny how we never hear of these stories eh. Only the ones where everyone including the village sheep agree that giving the unborn a chance would mean certain death for the mother and unimaginable suffering for the baby. As if being sliced up and sucked out is a joyous experience or something.

"Isn't it interesting how liberal believers constantly equate themselves to Jesus."

That's actually a positive step Lucyna, usually they're stepping all over him and condescendingly explains to us savages what he actually meant. Forget the bible and all they, they know what he actually meant.

Liberals are a morally bankrupt lot. Knocking off the unborn baby because the mother was raped is punishing the baby for the sins of the father.

You know what happens with partial birth abortion, it's absolutely terrible how the baby is killed. Some lefties are ok with this, but let anyone dare to suggest that a child-raping pedophile be strung up from a tall tree and there come the lefties with their bake-sales, protest marches and various petitions to try and save the scumbag.

Morally bankrupt.

Libertyscott said...

I understand the Catholic view, and sympathise up to a certain point. My chief concerns are twofold:

1. The church was ready to excommunicate a young child, who couldn't consent to sex, and couldn't consent to abortion either. What did she do wrong? How abominable is that? By contrast, do priests who rape get excommunicated with little delay?

2. The article you quote says specifically "Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the pregnancy, which was in its 15th week, posed a serious risk to the girl, who weighs 80 pounds". That's enough for me to say the raped girl comes first. How long do you wait before this serious risk kills the girl? This is twins in a preteen child.

As far as I'm concerned, if the life of the girl is at serious risk of the pregnancy continuing, it must be terminated. Any other view is sacrificing the living for the potentially living, which is utterly barbaric.

ZenTiger said...

Hi Liberty.

1. What? Where did you read that? I recall seeing that the Priest wanted to excommunicate the Doctors (who may not even be Catholic), but not the girl (who may not even be confirmed, let alone Catholic).

2. How serious the risk was would have been worth discussing. Getting a second opinion, so to speak. The Priest was looking for a way to save all three lives, not necessarily kill one.

This is why I started with two successful pregnancies of 9 and 10 year olds. I suspect those pregnancies would have been cast as "serious risk" had the Doctors intervened sooner.

Unfortunately, I don't know if we are ever going to get a rational debate on the medical options and exact risk profile. Twins for a 9 year old does seem to add an element of risk, but maybe mitigated by a C section? Remember, a women just gave birth to octuplets recently - another seemingly impossible feat.

The abortion occurred at 16 weeks, and that is not as "potential" as you might believe. Check out how advanced human life is at 16 weeks.

It's not sacrificing. It was never a given she would die.

I wonder if she was ever asked what she wanted? She would have felt the babies moving inside her.

It could have been that these two lives would be seen by her to be unique and special and worthy of life, in spite of the terrible circumstances in their creation. In years to come these lives could have given her comfort that out of such evil, came such beauty, and she may have been somewhat healed.

Instead, she now has to cope with the thought that the monster that raped her helped to end two more innocent lives, and that the people around her were never interested in saving her babies, such is their conviction such life never deserved to exist.

Just another point of view.

Lucia Maria said...

Archbishop Announces Excommunication of Doctor and Family Members for Abortion on Nine-Year-Old Girl

RECIFE, BRAZIL, March 5, 2009 ( - The Archbishop of the Brazilian city of Recife has announced the excommunication of a doctor who performed an abortion on a nine year old girl, as well as the family members who made the decision to carry out the procedure.


José Cardoso Sobrinho, Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, confirmed that while the child would not be held accountable for the act, the doctor who carried out the abortion and anyone who assisted or gave their approval were excommunicated by the Church.

"To be subject to this penalty is it is necessary to be of age. The Church is very benevolent, especially with minors," the Archbishop told the media. "Now the adults, those who approved, who carried out this abortion, are excommunicated."

So, no excommunication for the girl - only for the adults involved. All adults are Catholic.

ZenTiger said...

I heard on talk back radio today a few people valiantly defending the Catholic position.

One person said that there had been a documentary on TV (over the weekend) on this issue. Anyone see it?

This person said that the mother went to one set of Doctors that were confident the babies could be delivered with minimal risk to the girl, via C-Section. so the mother went to another set of Doctors.

In a largely Catholic country, this revelation may still prove to be contentious, because she would encounter Catholic doctors that abhor abortion.

I'm hoping some better medical analysis is presented. I've already found multiple cases of successful births from child mothers, not to mention twins, triplets and quads in teenage mothers.

Just what is the real risk profile? Can anyone point to stats?

Swimming said...

Do you think it is ok that the man is not excommunicated for rape but the girls mother is excommunicated for procuring the abortion. You would if, like these Catholic leaders, an abortion in an attempt to save the life of a girl who was raped is more of a sin than the rape itself.

Sweating Through fog said...

I'm in agreement with this post.

Dave: Regarding why the father was not excommunicated, excommunication is not intended to distinguish sinners from non-sinners. If the Church excommunicated all sinners, the Church would be empty.

ZenTiger said...

Dave, you probably don't see the termination of two 16 week old fetuses as having any sort of right to life, so this would be a hard conversation.

If you suggested that it was right for the police to murder two one month old twins so that a gunman would release a 9 year old hostage (after having raped her), because the babies were too young to have self awareness, then I would have to say the police involved in doing that might need to be excommunicated so that they can repent the error of their ways.

In their minds they did the right thing, but we don't really know if all three lives could have been saved by some other means. If they repent, they can receive communion again.

As for the rapist, there is no question in the Catholic Church he has committed a mortal sin. That has a whole pile of consequences, and possible excommunication is the least of this persons worries.

By the way, if some-one has committed a mortal sin, it is an ADDITIONAL mortal sin to take communion. Just adding woe to the trouble they are already in.

ZenTiger said...

*Obviously, my analogy is flawed because some atheists (but not all) see killing one month old babies as wrong, and classify it as murder, and may get hung up on this score.

They are puzzled though that others call it murder when crushing a 26 week old unborn baby's held with a pair of forceps and then hacking off the limbs and vacuuming the baby out.

* As well as Sweating Through fog's point, we would need a more in depth look at the purpose of excommunication versus the handling of mortal sins to understand better why rape and sexual abuse isn't added to the list.

ZenTiger said...

This is not so important in the general discussion, but worth mentioning that I've found a list of provable safe births from child mothers, including one who bore twins at age 10.

The wiki list is not up to date, I found other examples in various news reports.

List of Child Mothers

It will at least prevent people from arguing that death is a certainty for a child mother.

I've found no good medical based discussion of what the risk ratios would be, and I've found no reports of deaths of child mothers attempting to give birth.

The dangers of giving birth seem very much tied to nutrition and access to good medical support:

While a woman who gives birth in a developing country faces as high as a 1 in 13 chance of dying, in industrialized countries that risk falls to 1 in 4,100.

It is estimated that 515,000 women die every year as a result of pregnancy and childbirth.

More than 99 per cent of these deaths occur in the developing world.

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