Wednesday, October 21, 2009

Lucia Nazism vs Communism in New Zealand

School boys who photographed themselves bowing to a Nazi symbol have been made to apologise to the Auckland museum and spend some time teaching visitors how evil the Nazis were.

But, has anything happened to Bob Brockie, who confessed last month to his father potentially helping Soviet soldiers with their dysentry problem in 1940? The year my Dad, when he was a child, was transported to Siberia in a cattle rail car in the dead of winter by Soviet soldiers with his entire family - their only "crime" being enemies of Communism. That same year where up to 21,857 Polish officers were taken in groups out to the forests to be shot and buried in mass graves by Soviet soldiers, so that the problem of Polish leadership in a invaded country would be dealt with (ie the Katyn Massacre). A little something the Soviets learned from the Nazis.

No apology in the paper, no having to educate readers on the evils of Communism. Nothing, not even a mention.

You'd think it was a crime in NZ for schoolboys to take photos of themselves bowing to a swastika, YET, admitting to family actively helping the Soviets during the time that they were NOT an ally of New Zealand (in effect, an enemy of New Zealand) is not something to be even blinked at.

I put it down to how Socialist New Zealand is, how closely allied in spirit we are with the Communism of old.

These schoolboys have in effect committed a thought-crime. Thought-crimes are the worst of offences in Communist countries, because they go against the state story of itself. Anyone who commits a thought crime must be re-educated and seen to publicly repent. While as helping Communists, no matter what they have done, is like helping family - to be expected.

I think New Zealand really needs to take a long, hard look at it's love affair with Communism over the last century. For, the worst crime that a Communist could commit would be to go to the other side, to worship that traitor - the Nazi. Who was a friend and ally and then betrayed us. Even worse, pretended to be a friend and ally and then betrayed us. And now can only be reviled and spat on and any comrade who goes to the other side must be made to see the error of his ways.

For this over the top reaction to school boys taking photos of themselves bowing to the swastiska points to something far more than is rational going on.

19 comment(s):

Psycho Milt said...

A little something the Soviets learned from the Nazis.

Vice versa - the Soviets were digging mass graves when the Nazis were still pushed to rule one Munich beer cellar.

Lucia Maria said...

PM,

The Katyn Forest (and associated) massacres started after a meeting with the Nazis in Poland once the Nazis had started separating and executing the Polish intelligentsia. It's referred to in the Rising '44 book by Norman Davies.

Maybe it was a timing thing, maybe it was a "we're killing ours, you deal with yours" type thing.

Trust you to seize on the throwaway comment. What about the rest of it?

Sean said...

With all due respect to your family history and massacred countrymen, this is indeed drawing a long bow Lucyna. The guy posted over some seeds for medical purposes. Who cares if they were the enemy - if someone is in need of medical attention, the politics goes out the window. Ever read the parable 'The Good Samaritan'? It's not as if he was helping the actual guy who ordered the evil deeds you speak of.

Maybe it's not NZ's "love affair with Communism over the last century" that makes you draw comparison with the Auckland Grammar swatiska incident, but rather the shock, horror reaction approach given to anything remotely related to the Holocuast.

Lucia Maria said...

Sean,

I missed the part where the schoolboys were celebrating the Holocaust. I just thought they were worshipping a swastika. Maybe you could fill me in.

Sean said...

I don't think you missed it Lucyna. Who used the term "celebrating"?

Psycho Milt said...

Trust you to seize on the throwaway comment. What about the rest of it?

I've posted on the swastika thing myself, and am in agreement with you that punishing students for thought crimes is bullshit.

Re Brockie's dad, I commented on your original thread that we weren't at war with the Soviet Union at any stage of WW2, so there isn't any sense in which aiding the enemy comes into it. Aiding Poland's enemy, yes - NZ's enemy, no. The fact that the CCCP ought to have been considered NZ's enemy, and why the hell wasn't it, is a separate issue.

Lucia Maria said...

Sean,

I used the term.

PM,

I get it that NZ wasn't at war with the Soviet Union. Poland wasn't at war with the Soviet Union either, as the invasion was basically an undeclared war. But Poles knew who the enemy was. While as Bob Brockie, after all this time, and with the benefit of historical evidence, has no compunction with admitting his father tried to help the Soviets during 1940.

It would be like someone admitting to helping the Nazis during 1938 - do you think they would blandly publish an article admitting to doing so? Somehow I don't think so, because the Nazis are recognised to be an evil that no one wants to be associated with. Not so the Soviets, or Communism.

I was stunned to read a number of months ago, that a number of New Zealanders helped the Spanish Communists in their attempted takeover of Spain - it was matter of factly talked about in a book review. Nevermind that the Communists in Spain, in good old communist style, massacred a great deal of people they considered problematic, such as Catholic priests and nuns. But that's just par for the course for NZ'ers, isn't it? As long as it's communism, no matter what atrocities are involved, it's ok.

I look forward to the next book review where NZ'ers who travelled to help the Nazis are documented and blithely commented on in the same way.

Sean said...

Then....what was the point of your comment: "Sean, I missed the part..."?

Lucia Maria said...

Sean,

The point was that this whole thing is an overreaction. At no point were the schoolboys mocking or celebrating or doing to the Holocaust - yet, that is the immediate assumption. That assumption hides the wider aspect of this - that anything related to the Nazis in a communist sympathetic country is automatically a thought-crime.

Just look at the reaction to one of the Princes dressing up as a Nazi at a party in Britain - talk about mass hysteria. The direct connection of Nazism with the Holocaust hides what really drives this. If is didn't, then the mass murdering Soviet connection would product similar hysteria.

Sean said...

I guess that does somewhat put the earlier comment into some context, though it was ambiguous to say the least.

While I think that saying NZ is a "communist sympathetic country", and has a "love affair with Communism" is an exaggeration, I do agree with your sentiments in this latest comment of yours. It's all a bit silly really. The NZ Jewish Council tend to be the first to jump up and down at this sort of thing and I guess the media always pick up on that due to the controversial nature of anything to do with Judaism, Israel, Holocaust etc. etc. It makes a story, as has been shown this time.

Psycho Milt said...

It would be like someone admitting to helping the Nazis during 1938 - do you think they would blandly publish an article admitting to doing so?

Maybe not - but I believe that has more to do with modern hysteria about Nazis than with us going easy on communism. Plenty of conservatives in the UK supported the Nazis in the late 30s - no worse than socialists who supported the Soviets as far as I can see, but for most people these days Nazis are fantasy villains more along the lines of Lord Voldemort or Sauron than any actual historical figures.

squaredrive said...

PM and Sean have countered much of the nonsense in your post Lucia, but I would add my voice to rebut your persistent and false claim that Bob Brockie's father was somehow 'potentially' helping the Soviet 'enemy'. NZ has never been at war with the now defunct Soviet Union, as you acknowledge. Yet you say:

" ...helping the Soviets during the time that they were NOT an ally of New Zealand (in effect, an enemy of New Zealand)"

So, not being an ally now makes nations our enemy? We better look out if other countries adopt this ludicrous standard, as some of our chums (USA, UK) are the enemies of a lot of other countries, including North Korea, Iran, etc. Your logic would see Iran et al viewing NZ as not being their ally, so in effect, being their enemy. Guess our sheep exports will stop then, huh?

Sean highlighted the need to medically assist the sick - even those of genuine enemies (not WW2 allies you later label enemies). Would you not treat enemy soldiers?

Amd the difference between your claim it would be like "someone admitting to helping the Nazis during 1938 " and helping the Soviets is.... the Nazis went on to BE our enemy and kill many Kiwis, whereas the Soviets went on to be our ALLIES and save many Kiwi lives (and the Soviets saved Polish lives - including those Poles who fought with them, though that was offset by WW2 and later Soviet murders of Poles as well).

Gaah, this whole post reflects poorly on you Lucia, and I would urge you to reflect on that, and not keep labelling people enemies of NZ who have never been.

Amd while the whole Grammar Boys/Lincoln Uni Nazi stories were overhyped, there was a serious point about not wanting people to forget such atrocities. That doesn't mean NZ is communist, nor that thought crimes are being targetted by 'Reds under the Bed'.

Pah!

Lucia Maria said...

Squaredrive,

Amd the difference between your claim it would be like "someone admitting to helping the Nazis during 1938 " and helping the Soviets is.... the Nazis went on to BE our enemy and kill many Kiwis, whereas the Soviets went on to be our ALLIES and save many Kiwi lives (and the Soviets saved Polish lives - including those Poles who fought with them, though that was offset by WW2 and later Soviet murders of Poles as well).

There are a great many Kiwis living in NZ whose families were murdered by the Soviets. Not just my family, not just Poles. So when you say that the Soviets were never the enemy of NZ, step very, very carefully over the corpses of those people.

Also, while the Soviets were "our" allies, they murdered half of my father's family. This was not during their undeclared war on Poland, this was after they were attacked by the Nazis.

The Soviets basically made a farce of the word ally, so when you use it, be aware that I know it doesn't mean what it is supposed to when applied to someone of the Soviet Union.

They saved many Polish lives???

You have got to be kidding!

You mean when they stopped and watched the complete destruction of Poland's capital city for months on end, arresting and killing any Polish home army units operating in the area that they could get their hands on - this was 1944, btw, and shooting at any allied planes that flew across their airspace that tried to help the failed uprising against the Nazis.

But you don't mean that, do you. You mean the same old tired line that the Soviets saved us from the Nazis. Well, you know what, IF the West had not helped them, the Nazis and the Soviets would have destroyed each other in WW2, rather than the Soviets coming out victorious and able to threaten the West for 50 more years.

squaredrive said...

Harumph - nonsense Lucia! You are conflating individual and families with nation states. NZ and the Soviet Union have never been enemies. But many individuals and families were killed by the Soviet regimes.

That is a poor basis for judging international relations though, as there are plenty of Kiwi families who have had a family member (or several) killed by citizens of other states. For example, Vietnamese citizens killed by the US in the 1950s-70s war, or later by China in their Sino-Viet war; but that does not make China or the US an enemy of NZ because we have Kiwi citizens who are family of the dead Vietnamese!

As I have now said several times; the Soviet govt and their armies killed many unjustly (in WW2 and later conflicts, including their own citizens). But I was talking about the fact that many Poles and others did find protection from the Nazi forces behind Soviet lines (even though others were deemed 'enemies of the revolution' and killed or sent to camps).

Amd frankly, your implication that the West should have left the Soviets and Nazis to slog it out is silly and immoral. Countless more luves would have been lost, with no guarantee the Soviet side would have lost or even been weaker (long wars accelerate military developments). And the Soviets may have just repeated their tactic of WW1 - negotiate a rapid peace with the Germans, and leave the West up against it...

This whole debate is silly - I just think you should leave Bob Brockie and his family alone.

Lucia Maria said...

Squaredrive,

Now you are just being plain offensive, implying that I am somehow doing something to Bob Brockie and his family.

My whole argument has always been that if NZ declared war on the Nazis because of the invasion of Poland, then the co-invaders of Poland (ie the Soviet Union) should at least have been seen as an enemy. That they were not, even now, with the hindsight of history and an understanding of just how reprehensible they were, speaks volumes.

To say that NZ and the Soviet Union were never enemies, even during the cold war period, astonishes me, and quite frankly explains alot about this country.

And if you continue to be offensive, I will delete your comments. Both PM and Sean have managed to conduct civil conversations here - but you cross the line.

squaredrive said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lucia Maria said...

Squaredrive,

As promised, I have deleted your comment as you seem unable to disagree with me without being insulting.

I could have just deleted all your comments without warning you, but that would hardly be fair. Kind of like an undeclared war. But declared or not, your comment is still deleted.

libertyscott said...

Excellent and thoughtful post.

I suspect because Marxism had (has) so much currency in universities that it was introduced to many students (like it was to me) as an alternative point of view. Many tried to portray the Cold War as like that, instead of being freedom vs tyranny.

Maybe it is just naivete, Nazism was so aggressively militaristic and genocidal it is obvious what is evil - so many saw socialism/Marxism as idealistic, as good if "only it worked".

The moral case for communism has rarely been well refuted in New Zealand political or journalistic discourse.

AvgasStew said...

Something tells me that chip on your shoulder will only get heavier as it collects dust.....

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