After all this talk about us being a Christian country or not, I thought I'd start with printing below the Ten Commandments.
Let's see, how many of these commandments have our lawmakers deigned to change? 'Do not Kill' for one. Babies are killed in the womb every day in this country and many others. 'Do not steal'? Helen's pledge card comes to mind.. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
Yesterday I read some of the comments made by Herald readers criticizing Brian Tamaki for his statement; some of the readers said things like, 'oh but what about the Maori gods? They were here first', and a Michelle B wrote
Yes, the Maori were here first with their gods and laws, but I hardly think we would like to go back to eating each other or to return to the child sacrifice rituals of the Mayans and other cultures.
If we don't have these immutable laws, then all we have is the opinion of those who rule us to create the rules we should live by, based on their personal thoughts and interests, and we all know what their opinions are worth today (witness the smacking, prostitution, and civil union laws among others).
- You shall have no other Gods but me.
- You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
- You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
- You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
- Respect your father and mother.
- You must not kill.
- You must not commit adultery.
- You must not steal.
- You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
- You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Let's see, how many of these commandments have our lawmakers deigned to change? 'Do not Kill' for one. Babies are killed in the womb every day in this country and many others. 'Do not steal'? Helen's pledge card comes to mind.. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
Yesterday I read some of the comments made by Herald readers criticizing Brian Tamaki for his statement; some of the readers said things like, 'oh but what about the Maori gods? They were here first', and a Michelle B wrote
'Frankly, if NZ is declared to be a 'Christian Nation', where our laws/legal system, and discussions on rights are all based strictly on Christian principles (as in adherence to the Bible), then this is not a place I want to live. 'Guess what, Michelle? Our laws/legal system is already based on those principles. I'd challenge any non-Christian or atheist (even were they to disregard the first four laws which talk about honoring God) to point out where our law should deviate from these commandments.
Yes, the Maori were here first with their gods and laws, but I hardly think we would like to go back to eating each other or to return to the child sacrifice rituals of the Mayans and other cultures.
If we don't have these immutable laws, then all we have is the opinion of those who rule us to create the rules we should live by, based on their personal thoughts and interests, and we all know what their opinions are worth today (witness the smacking, prostitution, and civil union laws among others).
I can't help but comment that three of your examples (smacking, prostitution, and civil union laws ) don't break the Ten commandments
ReplyDeleteSb
Try 5 and 7. Remember, being Christian means we interpret the 10 Commandments the way Jesus did.
ReplyDelete"You have heard it said, thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say, whoever looks at a woman lustfully has committed adultery with her in her heart" - PROSTITUTION, and by inference HOMOSEXUAL UNION
I imagine Jesus would have said;
"You have heard it said, thou shalt honour thy father and mother. But I say, whoever shuns the discipline of his parents has dishonoured his parents in his heart. SMACKING.
Well the Labour party are skating on the edge:
ReplyDelete1. One God: They are dumping God, let alone having others. No prayers in parliament, and effectively no real oath to do the best for their country.
2. False Idols? Kyoto. The United Nations. Political Correctness.
3. Misusing the name of God: The "chinless scarf wearers" comment exemplifies this. God is treated as a swear word by Helen, with all dissent laid on "Christian fundamentalists" even when they poll 80% of the population.
4. Sunday a day of rest: Sabbath day holy? Trading on Sunday, Easter Trading - it's all being forsaken.
5. Respect for the parents: The Labour party show no respect for the father and mother - the smacking bill shows they will determine the bounds of discipline and sends a signal they have no faith in the natural love of parents for their children. The messages they send to the children to disobey and disrespect their parents continue, as they preside over a system that will hide the fact that a teen is pregnant from the parents, that a social worker will encourage a pre-sixteen year old to divorce her mother and other such incidents.
7. Adultery: An area the MSM refuse to delve into when it comes to Benson-Pope and others, but only too happy with Brash.
8. Not Steal: They pledge to use tax payer funds anyway they can get them, and if deemed illegal they retrospectively steal the money and then have the audacity to try to rush through a bill to give themselves more money by completely funding their party via the public purse.
9. Bear False Witness: Donnegate. Speedgate. Brethrengate. National Policy in the "pockets of the Americans". Lies upon lies.
10. Envy of thy neighbour: Their whole mentality is based around the politics of envy. Take more tax than required to give to those who they deem more deserving.
Nope, not doing too good on that score.
"You have heard it said, thou shalt honour thy father and mother. But I say, whoever shuns the discipline of his parents has dishonoured his parents in his heart. SMACKING."
ReplyDeleteAs killing the kid who was disrespectful is the proscribed penalty in that made up fiction we call the Bible would AJ care to tell us if he follows it to the letter...? And how many kids does he have left?
Uhmm...Saturday is the Sabbath.
ReplyDeleteUm, James, you must be looking at a different bible than the rest of us. Nowhere does it say in the bible to kill a child who is disrespectful to his parents.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, Saturday was traditionally the day marked as the Sabbath, but here in the West we take Sunday for that day ('and on the seventh day God rested'). I probably doesn't matter which of the two it is, as long as you keep a day holy.
I nearly said "is it written in stone?" but that would be self-defeating ;-)
ReplyDeleteFrom what little I understand, I think Sabbath as Saturday was a Jewish thing, with the Seventh Day Adventists and others in keen agreement.
But: Passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.
Sabbath or Sunday
Actually Fletcher I believe James is right. I think the word is insolent.
ReplyDeleteMate I must still be a bit of a fundamentalist if I think perhaps there might be some sense in such a law. I mean, think about it. Children would behave a damn site better if they could be sentenced to death for insolence. Just shows you how much of an extreme we've swung to today. There is probably a middle ground somewhere that is a good place to be. As I said, Jesus' interpretation of the law is what we go on - not Moses' interpretation :) While Moses was light on the depth of the law and stong on punishment, Jesus seemed to be the opposite.
The point is, James, not whether or not a child should be killed for insolence, but whether or not insolence is a bad thing that should be corrected.
Why do xtians get so hung up on the 10 commandments, yet ignore so mnay of god's other laws as revealed in the OT? The dietary laws, the realtionship laws, honoured in the breach not the observance?
ReplyDeleteIt is the hypocrisy that sets xtains aprt from almost any other religion I can think of.
fugley, you ought to look up hermeneutics on wikipedia
ReplyDeletefugley, those OT laws were basically to guard the Israelites from disease etc while they were on their journey to the promised land and if you read them they make a lot of sense. WAY before people knew what germs were, here is God telling them about hygiene - pretty smart if you ask me. eg, don't eat rats..if the body of a dead animal falls on your bowl, don't use the bowl again - break it and throw away any food that was in it...if your clothes get touched by something unclean, wash them...seems sensible to me.
ReplyDelete--snip--
" 'Of the animals that move about on the ground, these are unclean for you: the weasel, the rat, any kind of great lizard, the gecko, the monitor lizard, the wall lizard, the skink and the chameleon. Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean. A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean. If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, it is unclean for you.
'If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass will be unclean till evening. Anyone who eats some of the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.
The point is, James, not whether or not a child should be killed for insolence, but whether or not insolence is a bad thing that should be corrected."
ReplyDeleteThe point is AJ, that the bible is supposed to be the literal word of God....or has that been revised by you guys too...? (One can't keep up)
" "Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen," Deuteronomy 27:16. "And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death, . . . And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death," Exodus 21:15, 17. "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him," Leviticus 20:9. "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold of him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear," Deuteronomy 21:18-21.
"The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it," Proverbs 30:17. "Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness," Proverbs 20:20.
Hmmmm seem pretty clear to me....curse the olds and you are dead meat.
Oh and this gem...
ReplyDelete""For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition," Matthew 15:4-6 (see also Mark 7:10-13). " . . . what shall I do to inherit eternal life? . . . Thou knowest the commandments, . . . Honor thy father and thy mother," Luke 18:18-20."
So is it death or not if we are to really live by Gods word...?
They are also the laws that we as a Christian country, and other Christian countries, base our laws on or used to anyway . . . I'd challenge any non-Christian or atheist (even were they to disregard the first four laws which talk about honoring God) to point out where our law should deviate from these commandments.
ReplyDeleteCommandments 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 10 appear to have no representation whatsoever in New Zealand law - with the exception of 4 I doubt they ever did. 6, 8 and 9 are certainly covered under legislation, but since they're represented in every legal system in virtually every society on earth whatever it's faith that doesn't help you out much.
Regards your challenge to atheists, my first question would be as to how you would legislate commandment 10 - what kind of punishment (death?) being envious of my neighbour would recieve, how the police would enforce this legislation, what kind of evidence they would present to provide proof of 'envy' ect.
That quote of Jesus’ is a real good one to bring up. You obviously understand one very important principle of hermeneutics to look to Jesus’ interpretation of the law. What has he said here? By saying that an insolent son “shall be free” Jesus is inferring that the Pharisees treat such a man like any other man – despite the fact that God’s law sees an insolent son as harshly as it sees a rapist or a fornicator. Jesus is asking tem to take more seriously such a crime. Would he have asked them to reinstate the death penalty for this crime? “He who is without sin cast the first stone” ring a bell?
ReplyDeleteDanyl, to answer your question, perhaps its time to reintroduce anti-landlord laws??
James, all that you quoted there is true, but Jesus came to fulfill the law and he said -
ReplyDelete--snip--
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
--snip--
The word 'death' that some of you gleefully refer to in your quotations does not mean that if a son disrespects his father that he should be killed. It means the death of the soul, probably.
It doesn't mean that the if the son is disrespectful that the father is going to pull a scythe out from behind the shed and chop down his son...LOL
I have hacked into Helen's emails and discovered this terrifying document:
ReplyDeleteLabour's Statement on Religious Diversity
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1. There is only one State, and Helen is its Prophet
2. The people shall respect no power or authority other than the edicts of Helen and her Great Bureaucracy
3. The people shall hold no "fact", "truth claim" or "belief" to be propositionally true, ultimately true, verifiable, or legitimate -- other than the statements in this document
4. The people shall hold no values, mores, or cultural standards higher than the Eternal Secular Principles of "tolerance, diversity, and inclusion".
5. Any person who contravenes (3) by publishing any kind of "fact, truth claim, or belief" shall be deemed a bigoted violator of (4); subject to public vilification; proclaimed a public nuisance; and investigated by the People's Police Force
6. The people shall respect the values of the Green Party and the illustrious Susan Bradford, whose research has found that 80% of New Zealanders are criminally violent to children
7. In light of (6), and some disturbing references to a primitive Judaic belief system in the history books, an extensive re-education programme shall be implemented. All references to "Israel", "the Holocaust", "Jesus Christ", "Christianity" shall be expunged.
8. You shall not covet your neighbour's property, unless you happen to work for the IRD.
9. You _shall_ covet your neighbour's ass. Especially if thy name is David Benson-Pope
10. Thou shalt enlarge the power and glory of the Prophet Helen, her almighty State, and its many-splendoured Departments, at every PR opportunity
Ah, yes, Peasant. Now it all begins to make sense.
ReplyDeleteWhy does god so frequently command breaches of his own commandments, in particular number 6?
ReplyDeleteAnon, would you like to give an example of God recently commanding breaches of His own commandments?
ReplyDeleteWhy does god so frequently command breaches of his own commandments, in particular number 6?
ReplyDeleteLike Haldane, I'm more curious to know why God is so fond of Beetles.
Anon, check out this link. Also, as far as God's commandments, they are his laws for us and he doesn't necessarily have to obey them himself. The relationship between God and us is kind of like between parent and child (God is our Father). When a parent makes a rule that a child has to be in bed by 7pm, that doesn't mean that the parent has to follow the same rule and be in bed by 7pm also. There is a difference between parent and child that gives the parent the right to be an authority over the child, just as there is a difference between God and man that gives God the right to be an authority over man.
ReplyDeleteex-atheist also says "There is no other reason why this should be considered to be a good commandment. None. Zilch. Try to logical prove that killing is morally wrong. You will fail. Other than the reality of a god who declares killing to be morally wrong, there is no logically compelling reason for us to believe it is wrong."