While I must respect Dr. Beckwith and his education and experience he is either trying for a clever play on words that needs further explanation or he is generalizing based on a strange sampling of Protestants.
My experience with Evangelical Protestant churchs, espcially Baptists, is that the teaching emphasizes a daily walk with Jesus and being more like him.
My understanding is that your faith is reflected from being content with a loving God that is revealed on the inside. You cannot be a champion of the Lord on the outside unless you’re a warrior of the truth on the inside. Religious orientation is not a major factor as many so called Church people are masquerading Christian's. Only when you open the doors to the Holy Spirit can you even start to think of the mind-blowing existence of salvation and heaven. Righteous mirrors of image and behaviours do it all on the sick planet earth that is saturated in evil .
Whilst that generalisation by Dr Beckwith may be true of some, it is certainly not true of all.... I'm sure we could flip it around and say the opposite as well... and indeed many Protestants do make the accusation that the Catholic faith is simply about getting one into heaven and not concerned about how one actually lives their lives. It's a simplistic misunderstanding. I would venture to say that Dr Beckwith's statement is a simplistic misunderstanding of the Protestant faith.
Any good approach to the faith will take both into account, ones eternal destiny and ones present life, being conformed to the image of Christ.
Indeed many Protestant denominations influenced by the Puritan era have a strong focus on the process of sanctification and how this outworks in ones outer and inner life. This has meant a strong focus on ones devotional life and ones moral outworkings. Indeed the work of social justice is also a factor within this.... William Wilberforces work towards the abolition of slavery was a fine example of this.
Of course, there are places where this has been misunderstood within Protestant circles as well and taken to places that are unhealthy. But overall, the point is an understanding of heaven that is both future and present.
As a non-catholic, I get annoyed when others of the non-catholic side make statements that are merely misunderstandings feeding their prejudiced view..... it equally annoys me when I see Catholics doing the same.... as I would venture to say Dr Beckwith has done with this comment.
Trying to get one over the opposition by throwing darts aint cool.
Frank, Dr Beckwith is a Catholic revert after being a Protestant for 30 years, I think. I always find the thoughts of converts/reverts with experience on both sides of the Tiber really interesting. Like Skyman, I'd love a further explanation of his quote, which is why I've posted it.
I think I can guess what Beckwith means. In the Mass, for instance, we connect with Heaven during the consecration. And then we eat and drink Christ's Body and Blood, which is "getting heaven in" to our physical bodies.
That's cool, but it's still a problematic and simplistic comment.
Being a Protestant for 30 years doesn't mean he has the best understanding of what it means to be a Protestant.
I have a couple of older acquaintances who grew up as Catholics and much later in their lives became Protestants.... or Pentecostals to be more exact and quite honestly I don't listen to them to get a grasp on the Catholic faith.
Sometimes a convert is simply someone who makes us feel good because they jumped to our side of the fence and thus they tell us what we want to hear... why the other side isn't as good as ours.
Interestingly I read a book recently by a Christian who converted to Islam.... he's quite popular amongst groups of Muslims from what I am aware.... does that make him an authority on Christianity?
I would love a further explanation of his quote as well. Then we could work with it. At the moment it just sounds a little troubling.
Hey guys, I think both protestantism and Catholicism have problems with people who sit in the pews but don't take the message to heart. I think we can both be honest about this fact.
Imagine how different the world would be if more people actually used what they were being shown and taught to re-orientate their lives towards the image of Jesus.
IgnatiusInsight.com: Do you have any formal training in Evangelical theology?
Dr. Beckwith: Yes. I earned my first master's degree (M.A. in Christian Apologetics) under the direction of two Lutheran theologians, Charles Manske and John Warwick Montgomery. It was at the old Simon Greenleaf University that has since merged with Trinity International University in Deerfield, Illinois. In any event, at SGU I studied Evangelical theology, apologetics, comparative religion, and church history under Montgomery, Manske, and Michael Smythe. Among the several works that Smythe had us read for his church history course was Progress of Dogma by James Orr, the great Scottish Presbyterian scholar...
After reading that interview, whilst my comment on converts/reverts still stands as a general caution, that caution does not seem totally necessary with Dr Beckwith. So disregard my comment in this discussion. I liked what he had to say in the interview.... now I really am intrigued by that quote!
One reason I commented on this is because I know of Dr. Beckwith. I've read with interest of his return to the Catholic church and the reaction of different folks for a while now. Being a Southern Baptist and also still paying off my daughter's tuition to Baylor University I had felt some connections to and know a little about a couple of the organizations he left.
And that's why his comment intrigued and confused me. It is absolutely not what either of those organization teaches.
Unless, of course as we've surmised, he has a deeper/different meaning.
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While I must respect Dr. Beckwith and his education and experience he is either trying for a clever play on words that needs further explanation or he is generalizing based on a strange sampling of Protestants.
ReplyDeleteMy experience with Evangelical Protestant churchs, espcially Baptists, is that the teaching emphasizes a daily walk with Jesus and being more like him.
My understanding is that your faith is reflected from being content with a loving God that is revealed on the inside. You cannot be a champion of the Lord on the outside unless you’re a warrior of the truth on the inside. Religious orientation is not a major factor as many so called Church people are masquerading Christian's. Only when you open the doors to the Holy Spirit can you even start to think of the mind-blowing existence of salvation and heaven. Righteous mirrors of image and behaviours do it all on the sick planet earth that is saturated in evil .
ReplyDeleteWhilst that generalisation by Dr Beckwith may be true of some, it is certainly not true of all.... I'm sure we could flip it around and say the opposite as well... and indeed many Protestants do make the accusation that the Catholic faith is simply about getting one into heaven and not concerned about how one actually lives their lives. It's a simplistic misunderstanding. I would venture to say that Dr Beckwith's statement is a simplistic misunderstanding of the Protestant faith.
ReplyDeleteAny good approach to the faith will take both into account, ones eternal destiny and ones present life, being conformed to the image of Christ.
Indeed many Protestant denominations influenced by the Puritan era have a strong focus on the process of sanctification and how this outworks in ones outer and inner life. This has meant a strong focus on ones devotional life and ones moral outworkings. Indeed the work of social justice is also a factor within this.... William Wilberforces work towards the abolition of slavery was a fine example of this.
Of course, there are places where this has been misunderstood within Protestant circles as well and taken to places that are unhealthy. But overall, the point is an understanding of heaven that is both future and present.
As a non-catholic, I get annoyed when others of the non-catholic side make statements that are merely misunderstandings feeding their prejudiced view..... it equally annoys me when I see Catholics doing the same.... as I would venture to say Dr Beckwith has done with this comment.
Trying to get one over the opposition by throwing darts aint cool.
Frank, Dr Beckwith is a Catholic revert after being a Protestant for 30 years, I think. I always find the thoughts of converts/reverts with experience on both sides of the Tiber really interesting. Like Skyman, I'd love a further explanation of his quote, which is why I've posted it.
ReplyDeleteI think I can guess what Beckwith means. In the Mass, for instance, we connect with Heaven during the consecration. And then we eat and drink Christ's Body and Blood, which is "getting heaven in" to our physical bodies.
That's cool, but it's still a problematic and simplistic comment.
ReplyDeleteBeing a Protestant for 30 years doesn't mean he has the best understanding of what it means to be a Protestant.
I have a couple of older acquaintances who grew up as Catholics and much later in their lives became Protestants.... or Pentecostals to be more exact and quite honestly I don't listen to them to get a grasp on the Catholic faith.
Sometimes a convert is simply someone who makes us feel good because they jumped to our side of the fence and thus they tell us what we want to hear... why the other side isn't as good as ours.
Interestingly I read a book recently by a Christian who converted to Islam.... he's quite popular amongst groups of Muslims from what I am aware.... does that make him an authority on Christianity?
I would love a further explanation of his quote as well. Then we could work with it. At the moment it just sounds a little troubling.
Hey guys, I think both protestantism and Catholicism have problems with people who sit in the pews but don't take the message to heart. I think we can both be honest about this fact.
ReplyDeleteTrue that RG.
ReplyDeleteImagine how different the world would be if more people actually used what they were being shown and taught to re-orientate their lives towards the image of Jesus.
It blows my mind :o)
Frank, there's an interview with him on Ignatius Press, which includes this about him:
ReplyDeleteIgnatiusInsight.com: Do you have any formal training in Evangelical theology?
Dr. Beckwith: Yes. I earned my first master's degree (M.A. in Christian Apologetics) under the direction of two Lutheran theologians, Charles Manske and John Warwick Montgomery. It was at the old Simon Greenleaf University that has since merged with Trinity International University in Deerfield, Illinois. In any event, at SGU I studied Evangelical theology, apologetics, comparative religion, and church history under Montgomery, Manske, and Michael Smythe. Among the several works that Smythe had us read for his church history course was Progress of Dogma by James Orr, the great Scottish Presbyterian scholar...
He seems very well studied.
Great... then I'm even more intrigued to hear his thinking behind that quote. :o)
ReplyDeleteAfter reading that interview, whilst my comment on converts/reverts still stands as a general caution, that caution does not seem totally necessary with Dr Beckwith. So disregard my comment in this discussion. I liked what he had to say in the interview.... now I really am intrigued by that quote!
ReplyDeleteOne reason I commented on this is because I know of Dr. Beckwith. I've read with interest of his return to the Catholic church and the reaction of different folks for a while now. Being a Southern Baptist and also still paying off my daughter's tuition to Baylor University I had felt some connections to and know a little about a couple of the organizations he left.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's why his comment intrigued and confused me. It is absolutely not what either of those organization teaches.
Unless, of course as we've surmised, he has a deeper/different meaning.