Some-one made a passing comment on a thread (another blog) that I think reflects the opinion of many:On the prostitution front, I think 'each to their own' and it is a fairly harmless activity.
It's not actually a fairly harmless activity.
People may be entering the profession "by choice", but for most, it's the kind of choice built on broken foundations and made in the absence of real freedom.
And if so many people were keen on it, trafficking in sex slaves wouldn't be on the rise. I don't expect you to take my word for it, but there is an excellent book on the subject: Prostitution, Trafficking and Traumatic Stress, by Melissa Farley.
A review said:
Prostitution, Trafficking, and Traumatic Stress offers the reader an analysis of prostitution and trafficking as organized interpersonal violence. Even in academia, law, and public health, prostitution is often misunderstood as "sex work." The book’s 32 contributors offer clinical examples, analysis, and original research that counteract common myths about the harmlessness of prostitution.Here's a link to some content: Prostitution Screws You
Prostitution, Trafficking, and Traumatic Stress extensively documents the violence that runs like a constant thread throughout all types of prostitution, including escort, brothel, trafficking, strip club, and street prostitution. Prostitutes are always subjected to verbal sexual harassment and often have a lengthy history of trauma, including childhood sexual abuse and emotional neglect, economic discrimination, rape, and racism.
International in scope, the book contains cutting-edge contributions from clinical experts in traumatic stress, from attorneys and advocates who work with trafficked women and children and prostituted women. A number of chapters address the complexity of treating the psychological symptoms resulting from prostitution. Others address the survivor’s need for social supports, substance abuse treatment, peer support and culturally relevant services.
A life of prostitution is not the Pretty Women fantasy many seem to think it is.
"A life of prostitution is not the Pretty Women fantasy many seem to think it is."
ReplyDeleteGood "strawman" argument/comment there Zentiger.
(or in this case is it strawwoman or strawperson?)
Sb
And what do you make of my quote then from a real commenter:
ReplyDeleteOn the prostitution front, I think 'each to their own' and it is a fairly harmless activity.
Be brave SB, take a position. On the whole, do you think prostitution a harmless activity (especially for the prostitute) or not?
ReplyDeleteInterestingly all the big feminist blogs in the US are against legalisation because of what you say - the normalisation of prostitution as a career 'choice' just like any other.
ReplyDeleteA lot of men seem to think selling your body for sex is just like selling a man a newspaper. It is not. A huge % of prostitutes come from a background of abuse, many have mental health problems, most cannot do the work for too long because of the toll it takes. No one wakes up in the morning and says "Hey I think I'll become a prostitute".
So it's certainly not 'victimless' - that lovely word again eh.
"Be brave SB, take a position" - very well ZenTiger, I have shown my colours before but not for a while so here we go again.
ReplyDelete"On the whole, do you think prostitution a harmless activity (especially for the prostitute) or not?"
My answer to this question (ignoring that it is another straw-man question) is that it is impossible to answer!
Why is it impossible to answer this question? Because of the incredible variability in the experiences of sex workers. Some do very well, some are destroyed by the work. Some of them make a fortune other make very little money at all. Some are damaged by the stress, other revel in it. For some sex workers it is a way out of a very big problem and a way of starting their lives again. I know sex workers who have fallen in love with clients married and have (apparently) excellent relationships, but at the same time I know ones who have loathed the punters from day one until they left and they still loath them.
With that level of variability it is impossible to answer your question because, the answers YES, NO & possibly are all valid depending on the persons circumstances, previous experiences and personality.
My personal position on it is that I have no position of my own. I take the position of the individual sex worker concerned, she is the only one that truly knows what the deal is. If she is OK with it then I am ok with it, if she is not then I am not.
I firmly believe in the rights of sex workers, the right to refuse a client is paramount as is the right to insist that the punter wears a condom. I believe in the right to a safe work environment but most of all I believe in the right to chose whether to be involved in the sex industry or not.
Sb
Ruth "Interestingly all the big feminist blogs in the US are against legalisation because of what you say"
ReplyDeleteStrange I have been reading feminist blogs for many years and my impression is the opposite.
A huge % of prostitutes come from a background of abuse,
Can we stay in the real world please. Studies done in several western style countries have shown that the above statement is a myth. Though there is some truth to it it is not a huge number. One NZ study that was several years ago suggested the the figure is approx 10%, however the study noted that using the same measurements the level of abuse of the average kiwi was 5%. So sex workers were approx twice as likely as ms average to have suffered abuse before entering the sex industry.
one of the things mentioned in that report was that several of the sex workers interviewed who indicted that they have suffered abuse before joining the industry said that they did not regard the industry as abusive.
many have mental health problems oh dear another myth.
No one wakes up in the morning and says "Hey I think I'll become a prostitute".
Actually Ruth studies have shown that that is exactly what more that 80% of sex workers actually do.
Sb
Well SB, I dispute your statistics, from what I've read, you are the one with the mythconceptions.
ReplyDeleteAt the least, a liberal position on prostitution requires full consent.
If we focus on the countless cases where this is not being given, you'd have to face up to the reality there is little legal protection for these women, and there is much unreported abuse.
BTW, The question isn't impossible to answer. On the whole, it's not a harmless activity. On the whole, statistically, there are more women reporting bad experiences, and even a few bad experiences out of many OK ones can still be extremely damaging.
Zentiger:
ReplyDelete"Well SB, I dispute your statistics, from what I've read, you are the one with the mythconceptions."
Really - I use official publication and reports from Government departments and peer-reviewed scientific publications over the last 15 years.
Where do you get yours from NZ catholic?
Oh and Farley who you mentioned above has blown any credibility long ago. She has been caught faking stuff so many times, every wondered why she can never get any of her stuff published? well it because it cant survive peer review!
requires full consent.
Please lets not start on the "true" meaning of consent!
countless cases
really and you know about them how? NZ Catholic again?
little legal protection for these women
so you know better than the New Zealand Government prostitution Law Reform committee - interesting!
and there is much unreported abuse.
and you know this how?
On the whole, it's not a harmless activity
Many Sex workers would not agree with you there, but then what do they know?
statistically, there are more women reporting bad experience
No they are not - but lets not let facts get in the way of a good rant huh!
Sb
I'll come back to your points when I've got time (the responsibilities of a job and all that).
ReplyDeleteIn the meantime, here's something to consider. It's what you probably refer to as a strawman argument, whereas others seem to think of it as "reality":
Up to 18,000 females, including girls as young as 14, are working in brothels across Britain after being smuggled into the country to meet the booming demand for prostitutes. Police, unveiling the results of the largest ever crackdown on people smuggling yesterday, revealed that nearly five times more women than previously thought are working under duress in massage parlours and suburban homes.
Operation Pentameter 2, a six-month campaign by police forces across the country, resulted in the release of 154 women and 13 girls put to work as part of a lucrative trade dominated by organised crime gangs, which increasingly co-operate via the internet to maximise earnings from their victims.
The campaign, which saw the arrest of 528 suspected traffickers and the closure of 822 brothels and premises being used to sell sexual services, also revealed an increasing use of young British women, who are trafficked within the UK after being groomed by older men who lure them to towns away from their homes. The Home Office highlighted one recent case in Sheffield where 33 victims had been recruited by men in public places and taken away for sexual exploitation.
Trafficking not a myth after all
It seems to me that you claim to not know the answer to the question I posed, but put a lot of effort into asserting women just love this job, that anything negative can be countered, and all is hunky dory. You got shares in a brothel or something?
Oh, that news article is hot off the press today. Maybe your peer reviewed sources haven't had time to update their papers?
ReplyDeleteOlena's story
ReplyDeleteOlena, 23, escaped last year from a brothel in Sheffield:
"I come from a very poor area of Ukraine. I went to Moldova with a friend who said he could help me get work, but he sold me to some Albanians. They locked me in their house, raped me and beat me regularly. I was taken to the UK, to a massage parlour in Sheffield, where I was forced to see up to 15 clients a day but could not keep any of the money. The men visited my mother and told her that if I returned home they would kill me."
Unfortunately, some women are too scared to seek help, and the people that control these organisations are extremely ruthless.
ZenTiger - you make me laugh!
ReplyDeleteA press release from a PR office of a police force to a national news paper means so much more to you than reports and studies done over many years in detailed manners by experts on the subject.
Their own figures don't make sense.
18,000 females working.
The cops work for six months raiding 822 brothels and they find 154!
So where are the other 17800 approx?
The UK needs better cops! that's a truly pathetic result.
How about a better answer "after six months of great effort they found out that only 150 approx trafficked women worked in brothels in the UK!"
The cops were very heavily criticised after Pentameter 1 (mainly for falsifying numbers)in 2006 seems they have not learn't any lessons.
The reason that can't find the trafficked women is that they are not there!
Sb
Don't worry SB, they made 500+ arrests, and closed 822 brothels.
ReplyDeleteAnd the number rescued to date wasn't ZERO, it was 167. 167 real people that were slaves, held against their will. And you laugh?
I'll get to your peer reviewed stats later.
I have read more of your link ZT, it gets funnier.
ReplyDeleteI remember the first raids in 2006 - the cops took TV crews with them to show how many women they were rescuing, they soon stopped that when it became clear that the women they were rescuing either did not exist or did not want the cops to "rescue" them.
The first phase of Pentameter in 2006 rescued 88 victims and made 232 arrests.
Cool they were thousands and thousands awaiting rescue according to the cops, so by their own figures there were actually 88.
Most people would be embarrassed with a result like that.
Oh and 232 traffickers arrested but only 24 charged.
More brown stiff on the cops faces!
The UK has a whole industry "rescuing" women so strange that they can show so few results!
And for so much money spent.
I bet all those 822 brothels were back in business with hours of the cops leaving.
Sb
167 real people that were slaves, held against their will. And you laugh?
ReplyDeleteZentiger I am not laughing at the rescues - I have made it plain that I would support such rescues
its you I am laughing at and you acceptance without question or thought of any figure that supports (or seems to support) the anti-sex work stance.
Wake up - smell the coffee - they are lying to you!
Sb.
SB said: Zentiger I am not laughing at the rescues - I have made it plain that I would support such rescues.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't seem like you are supporting the rescues when you say:
Cool they were thousands and thousands awaiting rescue according to the cops, so by their own figures there were actually 88.
Most people would be embarrassed with a result like that.
Most people would actually be pleased rescuing 167 people (88 in the first phase).
When you ridicule the estimated numbers of people being held against their will and imply the Police are capable of finding them all and rescuing them in one operation, you are being disingenuous.
If we swap this example with drink driving:
The Police might run a blitz. That still means probably 1% of the roads across NZ, maybe having 2% of the cars on the road drive past them, to get a result of 200 drunk drivers.
The Police could reasonably extrapolate that there are more drunk drivers out there, and furthermore, no-one would have expected the police to catch them all.
And they are the ones out in the public eye. Tracking down illegal activities like prostitution and drug trafficking is much harder.
Wake up - smell the coffee - they are lying to you!
Yeah, now that you've explained it I can see the Police could easily be everywhere at once.
822 Brothels 167 rescues.
ReplyDeleteGosh that means that 655 had no trafficked or enslaved staff?
How can that be the cops say that 80% of women in UK brothels are enslaved? where are they all ZenTiger?
Assuming 10 women at each location that a minimum of 8000 workers.
There (by the cops own figures) should have been close to 6000 rescues! where are they all?
That's something like a 2% rate not a 80% rate?
Where are they all, could it be they don't exist?
What about the 8000 who were found working there? They seem to have been neither illegal immigrants or trafficked workers do their voices not count just because they did not fit the cops profiles.
If the UK if full of women awaiting rescue (according to the cops) why oh why can they not find them?
I guess that the cops don't read the local papers or use the Internet?
Sb
Oh and yes I do regard any figure higher than zero as an unacceptable number. Also I do not have any shares in a brothel but I do know two women who do!
Probably Pandagon, Feministing and I Blame The Patriachy are the biggest fem blogs. All are against legalisation.
ReplyDeleteSuggest you check your premises as Ayn Rand would say.
Most people would actually be pleased rescuing 167 people (88 in the first phase).
ReplyDeleteUsing your rather strange way of looking at it lets try it another way.
If I said give me millions of pounds and I will go out and get 6000 bottles of wine, don't worry there are millions of bottles of wine out there I will get at least 6000.
You give me the money and i come back with 167 bottles. And I say 'gosh that was hard but don't worry i spent all your money but don't worry I got 167 bottles"
Would you say 'gosh Sb that's a job well done";"
The operation was not one night - you are being silly.
It had six months of preparation by hundreds of officers.
On any night of the year there are approx 12k women working in brothels in the UK. Working, present, there, able to be found!
Your comparism to drink drivers does not make sense. To make it comparable each drunk driver would have to fly a flag on their head saying they were over the limit, I am sure the cops could find them then.
The brothels and agencies don't hide, they are not hard to find, they are not hidden!
Sb
Ruth:
ReplyDelete"Probably Pandagon, Feministing and I Blame The Patriachy are the biggest fem blog"
I see you sites with "Alas, a blog", "feministing.com", feministe
and if you are going to bring in the freak show IBTP then I raise you 'Bound not Gagged"
They are at least slightly pro (and very pro in one case)
and Ayn Rand please! desperate or what!
Sb
ha ha ha
ReplyDeleteI just realised Ruth and I quoted the same site! I quoted it as being pro legalisation she quoted it as being against
Funny how different people read the same thing different ways!
Sb
More info on Pentameter 2,
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kent.police.uk/Your%20Area/East%20Kent/East_Kent_news/Pentameter_2.html
Look at the date - its been going on for a long time - not just one raid!
Sb
Gosh that means that 655 had no trafficked or enslaved staff?
ReplyDeleteHow can that be the cops say that 80% of women in UK brothels are enslaved? where are they all ZenTiger?
Assuming 10 women at each location that a minimum of 8000 workers.
Your assumptions are wrong. 600 of the places they visited were homes suspected of being brothels, or of housing sex-salves. Part of the problem is they are moved around to avoid capture. So, no, SB, there were not 10 happy hookers at each house they visited.
Part of the problem is they are moved around to avoid capture
ReplyDeleteNow you really are getting silly ZenTiger.
Sb
"On the whole, do you think prostitution a harmless activity (especially for the prostitute) or not?"
ReplyDeleteI shall attempt the impossible, in my opinion, no it's not harmless for the prostitute, nor is it harmless for her clients.
When i was growing up, my friends who had all paid for sex all boasted of their exploits, however they all advised not to go down that route and that they regretted doing it.
I remember watching a program a long time ago about prostitution, it was on a liberal channel so it's fair to say it wasn't biased against it, at the end they asked all the prostitutes who seemed alright with their professions if they would encourage their daughters to follow in their footsteps.
The answer from all was no. Make of that what you will.
I've never used a prostitute, I've known one and yes it isn't an easy activity for her. She wouldn't do it again and she had been abused as a child. I knew her well before she told me her story.
ReplyDeleteOf course a handful do it and love it (Xavier Hollander wrote profusely about it), this includes men. I wish it didn't happen, although there are people for whom it offers happiness for reasons I don't want to question.
For example, a portion of clients are severely physically disabled and as a result the ways and means most of the rest of us have to meet potential partners, seduce and the rest are not that accessible. I wont judge a quadraplegic who buys sex from a woman (or man) who happily is in the profession, and consents to the transaction. How dare anyone in fact.
Of course that is the minority, but let's face it, sex with money happens. It wont be stopped by the law, and the law shouldn't criminalise those who participate in it, but should offer the opportunity to protect those involved. That's why focusing on minors, focusing on trafficking, fraud and health should be the public policy priorities. The "war on prostitution" approach is often a disaster for all those caught in the crossfire - and an ugly opportunity for not a few police to take advantage of it for their own purposes.
The war needs to be on people trafficking which is an enormous problem in Europe, and perhaps most tragically depicted in the awfully sad film Lilya 4 Ever.