Many people in NZ consider the sexuality of their politicians to be irrelevant. If they do the job well, who cares who they go to bed with is the common refrain. Well, on the Kapiti Coast today we can see the effect of having a lesbian mayor.
Our council is trying to make it legal to be completely naked on all Kapiti Coast beaches as long as the nudity is not "lewd". Just merely being naked on a beach is not considered lewd behaviour. This is fully supported by our mayor who has said that
I am absolutely furious over this.
Did any elected councillor ever campaign over making our beaches naked? Of course they didn't. Most of them got elected because they were against water meters and were going to put in a dam to store some of Kapiti's water rather than letting it all go out to sea. Not a word on naked beaches.
So, this is an example where the virtue or lack thereof of the councillor is important. Someone who is lacking in virtue will not capable of governing for the common good. Instead we get the imposition of depraved values upon an unsuspecting community.
Our council is trying to make it legal to be completely naked on all Kapiti Coast beaches as long as the nudity is not "lewd". Just merely being naked on a beach is not considered lewd behaviour. This is fully supported by our mayor who has said that
"There will be no signage, they will have free rein. The beach is a place for the general public, as long as they are not being offensive they can be clothed or unclothed. The Human Rights Act supports anybody being there."I have two children whom I have been teaching all of their lives as to what is and isn't appropriate in public. We live right by the beach and spend quite a bit of time there during the summer. What am I supposed to do when naked people turn up? Tell the kids not to look and go home?
I am absolutely furious over this.
Did any elected councillor ever campaign over making our beaches naked? Of course they didn't. Most of them got elected because they were against water meters and were going to put in a dam to store some of Kapiti's water rather than letting it all go out to sea. Not a word on naked beaches.
So, this is an example where the virtue or lack thereof of the councillor is important. Someone who is lacking in virtue will not capable of governing for the common good. Instead we get the imposition of depraved values upon an unsuspecting community.
[...] the key to democracy is not free choice. As we know from the Weimar Republic, people can freely choose anything, even Hitler. The key, as our Founding Fathers knew, is virtue. Only a virtuous person is capable of rational consent because only a virtuous person's reason is unclouded by the habitual rationalizations of vice. Vice inevitably infects the faculty of judgment. No matter how democratic their institutions, morally enervated people cannot be free. And people who are enslaved to their passions inevitably become slaves to tyrants. Thus, our Founders predicated the success of democracy in America upon the virtue of the American people.Related Link: Pornography and the destruction of democracy ~ NZ Conservative
Oh please. Lesbian mayor? That straight pedophile leader of the Christian Heritage Party was 0.6% of the vote away from seeking being in a coalition government in 1996. Throw your bigotry back in the dark ages Lucyna. There are not a few people who no longer trust a priest with children because of what others have done.
ReplyDeleteI respect your opposition to the nudism issue. However to attribute this to having a "lesbian mayor" is childish nonsense - you know better.
LibertyScott, if we had a pedophille mayor, I'd be up in arms as well. No matter whether or not you consider these issues linked, the fact is 1) gay men were worried about Peka Peka beach being designated nudist because then everyone would know where they were, 2) so our Mayor, is is an out Lesbian, is quite happy to make all our beaches nude. Stuff the families - let's have naked men wandering around scaring the children. What next, are we going to get flashing made legal?
ReplyDeleteYou have to have some standards. It is crazy the "hidden agendas" these people come out with once they are in - Labour being a prime example. If you weren't prepared to campaign on a major moral issue you should have to leave it until after the following election - so the voters can choose.
ReplyDelete@libscott:
ReplyDeleteif you actually cared about children then perhaps you might support a culture virtue in NZ, rather than dig up smelly old smears
Libertyscott never fails to speak up for moral depravity and bash the church.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a link between a lesbian mayor and public nudity. Having wrong morality regarding homosexuality means anything goes.Unfortunately having elected these officials we reap what we sow.
ReplyDeleteThose who embrace the homosexual agenda are often at war with commonsense understanding of right and wrong and just plain moral decency.
today we can see the effect of having a lesbian mayor.
ReplyDeleteRather it is a case of "today we see the effect of inadequate property rights and 'tragedy of the commons'."
The statement "the human rights act supports anybody being there" is just hogwash.
ReplyDeleteSurely the crux of the matter is that designating it as a nude beach was always going to be a controversial thing to do, and the council is abusing its powers here, since none of them made mention of it during their election campaign.
Let them hold a ratepayer's referendum and see what the people who pay their damn salaries actually want.
And Libertyscott, since very many gays have a political agenda and are happy to use the fact of their homosexuality to promote it, then calling them out on it isn't "bigotry" at all.
ReplyDeleteLet them keep their sexual preferences in the privacy of their own bedrooms and stop trying to remake society in their aberrant image and most of us would be perfectly happy to ignore them.
But I suspect that being ignored would rob them of their pet cause, and that would never do....
Lucyna, the difference is a pedophile actually hurts people, a lesbian hurts nobody - except it offends those who are bigots. Her sexuality is as irrelevant as her hair colour, skin colour or indeed her sex.
ReplyDeleteScott: Oh please, I didn't bash the church, my Capill point is he was a married heterosexual that so many trusted on morality, so despite NOT being gay, he was vile. Knowing a person's sexuality (or celibacy) does not indicate morality. If you find naked bodies morally depraved then that's sad. Yes that's right, lesbians think "anything goes", they want to beat children, enslave boys and steal. Those heterosexual Christians are always examples to us all. It's pure bigotry you hold. I don't think a Christian is any more likely to molest children than a lesbian is to support public nudity - they are unrelated, but people of both identities have been good and evil.
Ruth has got it in one. It is about property rights. If the beach was privately owned, even if it was open to public access, the rules could be set - like we do with nudity in our own homes and on our own land. You can be "depraved, repressed, liberal, open minded" or whatever judgement you want about nudity on your own land.
In reply to Libertyscott -- you are anti-the church. How can not fail to be? The church believes in Christian morality and that some things are right and wrong. That is also the essence of conservatism -- the belief that there are moral truths that are universal and transcend our preferences.
ReplyDeleteYou on the other hand never fail to stand up for depravity. Is it not right that you believe that bestiality is okay? I wonder what your stance is on paedophilia?
I urge you to repent. Stand up for what is good and right and truthful.
As for public nudity -- our sexuality has been tainted by the fall. Therefore it is not right to go around with no clothes on. Is it not possible for example that men could stare lewdly at women with no clothes on? Is it not possible that people could be offended?
Who is this mayor that decides that public nudity is now okay on every public beach? Perhaps the good people of Kapiti might have to reconsider their choice of mayor.
@libscott
ReplyDeleteI'm not interested in your labyrinthine moral "logic", I just wish it was not imposed on everybody else. The nudists are just being selfish buggers. Respect for others should be paramount in public spaces.
LibertyScott, your contention that paedophilia is harmful and lesbianism isn't is incorrect. Both are harmful to long term mental and spiritual health of the individual and the ability to make permanent, healthy relationships and both seek young converts. The only difference is that the paedophile aims for a younger child. Both are totally about sex.
ReplyDeleteSo let’s get this right, some of you are saying; Gays have a greater propensity to nudity than the general populous, and seek every opportunity to abandon clothing and expose themselves to children in particular, even planting representatives on local councils to do their evil biddings – right ? What I would suggest therefore is a by-law which requires all Gay Nudists to wear an identifying ‘pink arm band’ (there’s also a neat one for Jews and Gypsy’s) Because of the swimming issue, the arm band may wash-off, so we may well need a tattoo on their wrists also? Personally, the only by-laws I would institute in respect to this stretch of beach would be firm requirements that (a.) NO fat ugly middle aged bodies! Punishment 15 to life (clothed or unclothed) (b.) Any toddler found naked would be seized by CYPS, and not returned to their parents until puberty (c.) Big Signs & Flags stating ‘Christians Swim Between the Rips’, so the rest of us can enjoy the beach and life in general. I'm planning a nude Harley drive along the entire stretch to celebrate and there's room on the back for a passenger if you don't mind gripping tight?
ReplyDeleteIt's disordered to equate nakedness with pornography. Nakedness in Art can be a great good, as long as it's not styled to provoke concupiscence. In other words there can be still be modesty in nakedness. A good example would be the Sistine Chapel, but here is an article by Christopher West on the issue:
ReplyDeletehttp://christopherwest.com/page.asp?ContentID=46
Having said that, liberal public nudity isn't modest and is a violation of the human rights of the general public.
Rather it is a case of "today we see the effect of inadequate property rights and 'tragedy of the commons'."
ReplyDeleteVery true Ruth, if Government were restricted to it's proper role it wouldn't matter who was Mayor. In fact the whole concept of Mayor might cease to exist. Then if you didn't like a beach that allowed nudity you could go to another one that didn't, and if you lived close to a beach that allowed it you could have recourse to sue them for violating your private property rights.
Canterbury Atheists,
ReplyDelete"Gays have a greater propensity to nudity than the general populous, and seek every opportunity to abandon clothing and expose themselves to children in particular, even planting representatives on local councils to do their evil biddings – right ?"
No. In this case, a council headed by a lesbian Mayor is seeking to allow nudity on all Kapiti beaches making it difficult for the non-nudist to avoid. Her lesbianess allows for a certain moral laxity which sees nothing wrong with nudity on beaches.
I personally have no problem with designated and sign posted areas for nudity, however, in this case nudity on ALL Kapiti beaches is being touted as a possible tourist attraction.
Who knows what types of tourists we will get? Maybe they'll be the exhibitionist type that enjoy walking up to children. Maybe not. Maybe our beaches will become full of perverts hoping to catch some action, maybe not.
Whatever will happen, the lack of morals of councillors has left the door open for this proposal to enter the public arena.
Naked toddlers is not a problem for anyone - it's the naked full grown men I'm personally worried about. No need for armbands, they'll stick out like a sore thumb.
"If they do the job well, who cares who they go to bed with is the common refrain."
ReplyDeleteIt's not just who they sleep with, people have become too apathetic to the behavior of our leaders in private. On the surface it sounds all well and good however by not judging we are in a way approving of it, and that then becomes an example for the rest of us and our children.
Eventually you end up in a situation where you're trying to catch the horse long after it has left the stable. So now you are left with the real prospect of a nudist beach because enough didn't give a damn about the sexual adventures of the mayor.
It was the same out here in Australia, we recently had a police minister who was just promoted and fired 3 days later because he was dancing around half naked a short time ago. I remember listening to the thing unfold on the radio and most were quick to say they didn't care what he did in his private time. Perhaps if we did care we could have avoided the embarrassment of having this dirty clown represent us and then humiliate us across the world stage.
Perhaps the powers that be are trying to promote New Zealand as a haven for sex tourism?
ReplyDeleteHi
ReplyDeleteJust want to make two points regarding this. Firstly the comment:
"Our council is trying to make it legal to be completely naked on all Kapiti Coast beaches"
I believe this is not correct - the council is not seeking to make it legal. Due to The Bill of Rights currently it is not an offence to merely be naked on the beach. The council is seeking to remove a potential bylaw that would contravene this.
Secondly, surely pornography must entail attempt to excite and titillate; those choosing to go naked on the beach would by and large not be doing it for those reasons.
Libertyscott confuses homosexual political activism with liberty.
ReplyDeleteNaturists are all friendly people, and there are thousands of beaches all over the world, Im sure the naturists themselves will keep the pervys off.
ReplyDeleteHi Tim of the hidden profile,
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that the Bill of Rights deems it inoffensive to be naked on the beach. How does a supposed "right" dictate to people what is and isn't offensive? It can't, all it can do is allow or disallow. I would love to see the clause that allows nudity on the beaches, I really would.
Your second point that "surely pornography must entail attempt to excite and titillate; those choosing to go naked on the beach would by and large not be doing it for those reasons" is wrong.
It is unnatural for adult human beings to go about naked. We have an inbuilt protective mechanism that prevents this. If that mechanism is faulty, and you have people that go about naked without caring that they may be causing embarrassment or offence to others, then you have shameless exhibitionism that borders on the pornographic. And then you have the people turning up to the beaches because they are naked beaches to watch and their intent is definitely pornographic.
I was going to write a post linking the porn aspect of this to the nakedness as I guess it's not obvious.
Since you've never commented on this blog before, can I ask if you are a regular reader or did you get directed here?
Brett, but who is going to keep the naturists off? Maybe it'll just be down to the mothers with handbags.
ReplyDeleteActually having thought Libertyscott was a complete waste of space he writes a very good article in TGIF(Ian Wishart's weekly news) about the state taking over the ownership of children through Sue Bradford's anti smacking act.Very thoughtful and highlights well the creeping power of the state and the desire of the government to take over parental responsibility.
ReplyDeleteSo Fair is fair-good article-well done.
scott: Sorry, sheer nonsens "never fail to stand up to depravity". I have endlessly stood up against murder, rape, theft, torture and the like in NZ and many other countries - for example Zimbabwe and North Korea. You think seeing people's genitals is on the same scale as that then you need help. Let's be clear, I don't think bestiality is "ok", I just don't think it is something that should be criminalised - many many things aren't criminalised. I assume your pedophilia quip is just a mindless rant as it hardly needs answering.
ReplyDeleteLucyna, your comment that equates pedophilia and lesbianism is vile. One is an initiation of force and exploitation, another is consenting adults having an intimate relationship. Undoubtedly I've known more lesbians than you, perhaps you need to meet more yourself to address this incredible bigotry. You're far more thoughtful than this shows. You simply assume the Mayor's "lesbianness" allows moral laxity - unlike all those heterosexual rapists, murderers, child molesters and beaters filling prisons who don't have the excuse that they thought it was ok because they prefer kissing the same sex.
Please, haven't most conservatives moved on from the blind bigotry that was seen in 1985 with the anti-homosexual law reform lobbying?
Let's be clear, I am non-chalant about this, I'd avoid beaches where I thought they would have random men wandering around naked - in NZ. In Europe it wouldn't bother me because most continentals don't find nudity to be anything unnatural. I don't think it is. It is one of the things I get least worked up about - nudity per se, is not sexual.
Oh and yes thanks Scott, though I have to note that TGIF did not gain my permission to publish that post. See I DO believe, passionately, in the rights of people to live their lives as they see fit, as long as they respect the same in others, and don't abuse their kids. THAT's what this is about. Like I said before, Ruth had it in one. It should be about private property rights. Nudist clubs do this. The beach? Well either people tolerate others engaging in legal behaviour, or we have these conflicts.
ReplyDeleteSuch assumptions, LibertyScott.
ReplyDeleteYou have no idea about my background or my friends or all the people I've come into contact with over the years.
The assumption that this is all about "bigotry" is just a way of closing down the conversation.
Did it ever occur to you that just maybe, my life experiences have added up to more than what you see written on the computer screen?
Right now, it IS NOT LEGAL to be NAKED on the beach. A small group of people, including our mayor, who is a lesbian and has admitted she is one and has stated publically that it's not relevant to her office is trying to make the entire beach a haven for naked people - against the wishes of most of the people on the Coast.
Now it's obvious you don't see the link between the mayor's lesbianism and what she's trying to do here, but just because you don't see it doesn't mean there isn't a link and doesn't mean that anyone who sees one is a bigot.
And FYI, I have known and been friends with a great many homosexually inclined individuals over the years (both males and female). I even talked one out of suicide when I was in my early 20's.
I only became conservative in the last couple of years as my understanding of life expanded beyond the narrow horizons you find yourself in, as I used to be pretty much just as libertarian as you are now.
Maybe one day you too will find the scales falling from your eyes.
Lucyna, you said "we can see the effect of having a lesbian mayor". I apologise for judging your background, but the fair assumption knowing nothing else was that you think of lesbians as inferior and morally suspect. Your assertion of cause and effect has no basis on objective fact, you have no idea whether lesbians generally would support or oppose this move. It is the same nonsense as the claim that openly gay men are a bigger risk to boys than married straight men (or avowedly celibate ones)- for which there is much evidence to the contrary. I'd prefer to treat people as individuals by their deeds, and because she is openly lesbian you can judge. A friend told me that Brett Ambler, former Kapiti Mayor, lived a very colourful private life, but as you were unaware of this you couldn't judge him. You simply can't place much correlation between sexuality and behaviour as in most cases you know virtually nothing about people's sexuality - which is far more diverse than the binary straight - not straight world.
ReplyDeleteYou put the words paedophile and lesbian together implying they were effectively similar, but only one affected children. Surely you can see the colossal difference between the predatory initiation of force and consensual adult interactions. The former is the business of the state and others, the latter isn't anyone else's business.
You claimed simply that the proposed abolition of the bylaw on nudity is "because there is a lesbian mayor", implying that lesbians shouldn't become mayors or even be politicians, presumably because they are somehow morally suspect.
I understand fully your concerns about nudism on beaches, I draw a line on threatening behaviour and would prefer the beaches be privately owned and managed, and the owners set the rules. I don't want to shut down debate, but I want evidence for your assertion. What makes a lesbian "morally lax" as not wanting to have sexual relations with men, is hardly uncommon and wanting to have sexual relations with women is also hardly uncommon.