Thursday, March 18, 2010

Lucia 23 minutes in Hell



I can't verify absolutely whether what this man experienced in clip above was really Hell. However, I see nothing theologically incorrect with what he saw, my only apprehension with the potential truth of what he says is his remedy for not going to Hell. I find it somewhat ... incomplete. However, considering his audience, it's probably as much as what they could take on and I had the thought that God doesn't want anyone to end up in Hell, so why not? He needs someone to talk to them.

This in inspired by a so far incomplete conversation I am having with Canterbury Atheist. Have a look, Paul. Tell me if you still think Hell is nonsensical.

20 comment(s):

Damian said...

What a load of nonsense. I feel sorry for the poor guy; he's clearly suffered mental trauma which I wouldn't wish on anyone. I hope he seeks medical/psychological help if it ever recurs.

Really, why would you believe this is true instead of the obvious conclusion that he had a nightmare (and quite possibly embellished/retrodicted details afterwards)? This is childish.

Also, I was quite taken by your intro: how would anyone "verify absolutely what this man experienced was really Hell"? Ask him to promise he wasn't dreaming or making stuff up?

Lucia Maria said...

Damian,

I take it you didn't listen to all 8 parts?

What makes think that this is probably real, is the trauma he suffered from the event. Matches what the Saints who have seen Hell experienced, that I can verify as truth.

Matthew said...

Hi Damien,

simply stating that "he's clearly suffered mental trauma" is your assertion.

It is fine to say to don't believe him, but to state that you, having never met him, know his own mind better than he does is not valid. In the same way I can disagree with your belief that it is "a load of nonsense", but I can't say that you need "medical/pschological" help. Now that is nonsense!

Andrei said...

Maybe, maybe not.

We have the Gospels, we have the Sacraments and the sayings of the Fathers.

Do we lurid tales of Hell to show forth the Light of the World, Christ? And do such tales reveal the Light of the World?

I know hell exists but does contemplating it lead anyone to salvation?

This parable of our Lord's is interesting

Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Lucia Maria said...

Andrei,

Maybe not, but then they are a good way of showing the warning signs for those on the way there.

My confirmation Saint was shown a vision of Hell, so that she could testify to it's existence and "...so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like[.]"

Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell

Reading about Hell certainly makes me pray more for the people I'm worried might end up there. It's like a spiritual kick in the pants.

Matthew said...

I thought about that too Andrei, but I realised that the rich man was not a Christian before he died, so he is unable to go back to earth. Lazarus was already in heaven which is not the case for the rich man; in other words, God did not permit someone already in heaven to warn those on earth; the same prohibition was not mentioned towards a true Christian who is experiencing hell (in fact the parable makes no comment on that at all, so we can't draw a conclusion that it is prohibited).

Of course I am not saying that you are trying to draw a direct and exact parallel between the parable and Bill's vision; in that sense it is certainly valid to say that people here on earth will "[not] be persuaded though one rise from the dead."

leftrightout said...

Sorry guys, but I've got to go with Kerry packer of "Packer Whacker" fame. He had a heart attack while playing polo and was "dead" briefly until the "Packer Whacker" revived him. He said "I've been to the other side, and there's nothing there".

ropata said...

Hell: a damnable doctrine, and a peculiarly malevolent tradition espoused by the RCC. Its basis in Scripture is extremely dubious. Its consistency with a just and loving God is a logical contradiction, ergo, Hell as eternal conscious torment, is a false doctrine.

ZenTiger said...

Ropata, not if hell is a voluntary rejection of God.

Lucia Maria said...

Ropata,

That's why I thought Bill's version was incomplete, but you've articulated why people such as he are necessary. That way it's not just Catholics who have been shown Hell.

LRO,

It is a grace to have a warning of what will greet you when you die. Maybe Kerry didn't get that grace. I wouldn't base my whole system of beliefs on what just one man didn't see.

Oswald Bastable said...

Forget Hell- Spagalimis in Ch-Ch is much better.

Canterbury Atheists said...

Here’s the deal guys – it’s basic psychology.

Centuries ago there were werewolves in forests and pixies at the bottom of every garden. A child brought up to see a black-cat as being evil would see a black-cats in their nightmares. Goblins were big in the 16th century.

If you were taught there were red-tailed devils and at the same-time not to put your hands in the fire – you believed your parents/teacher and this belief was implanted into your sub-conscious.

Any person who has an image/template of hell in their brain, fire & damnation etc, could re-call these in times of stress.

Had these individuals suffered the same trauma in another culture – their re-collections of death would reflect their own lives and up-bringing.

Near-death = brain starvation of oxygen = nothing to do with the real form of the term.

No one has come-back from death/death.

There is nothing more to read into this than this and any psychologist or doctor reading my ‘crude’ explanation would concur with statements.

Oh yeah agree Spags beats Hells for pizza.

Have a great weekend.

Paul.

David said...

Lucyna,

Perhaps this is pointless but let's see.

I think this guy probably had a psychotic episode, human memory is amazingly mailable so I don't place much stock in his evidence of having seen demon depicted elsewhere.

Why should I, as a non-believer, take these videos seriously. Moreover, why should I take them more seriously than the thousands of equivalent "eye witness" accounts of UFO abductees?

I'm not interested in a Pascal's Wager sort of answer, I want to know why I should believe this guy.

Lucia Maria said...

Hi David,

I'm not saying you should believe him specifically. I'm not 100% certain myself that his story is true.

One of my concerns is his entire focus on the physical agony in Hell, yet, the worst part of Hell is being unable to stop thinking of God, and having an acute awareness of everything you did in your life to get yourself there, and the guilt of every single sin you have ever committed.

No mention of any of that there, but, all of the above that I've just mentioned doesn't impact people as much as pain, which they can understand. So, given that the man didn't belong in Hell, he would have been spared the worst parts of it.

My purpose in posting this is just to act as a reminder of what the outcome of rejecting God is, to those who are capable of choosing Him. It's not oblivion, or a shadowy life much like this on earth - it's a horrendously painful existence for ever and ever, with no hope of it ever ending.

Lucia Maria said...

Paul,

So you think something did happen to Bill, but that it was a stressful, near death experience that his mind interpreted as some sort of very real dream that he is so convinced happened for real, no matter how bizarre it sounds, that he goes around telling people about it?

BTW, I don't think he is saying he actually died, just that he visited Hell for 23 minutes and that when he came back, he was so terrified he nearly died of fright. So, the near death experience was more a dying experience that occurred after the main event.

Lucia Maria said...

Andrei,

I think the ultimate in coming back from the dead and then walking amongst everyone is Jesus' resurrection. His resurrection proved to His disciples that everything He said prior to His death was true.

So, I don't think that parable you mention could be interpreted as a prohibition on coming back from the dead to help people find salvation.

I've always interpreted it more as that some people will never be convinced that God and life after death are real, no matter what fantastical proof they could be presented with. In that parable, it was determined that those involved had enough for salvation, yet they chose it not.

ropata said...

Choose your adventure game related to the topic at hand :)

The Hebrew and early Christian understanding AFAIK is that when the body dies the spirit sleeps until the final day when all are resurrected. The story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable about charity, there are several holes in the story that indicate it's not meant to be taken literally. I think the RCC understanding of Hell comes from Greek or Gnostic teaching, maybe due to Augustine? The way it's presented is usually wrong IMHO.

Quote:
“People do not go to hell after death. The designers and builders of hell are human beings. The designs and buildings are almost completed. It is becoming difficult to add more hell.”

Canterbury Atheists said...

A mate of mine father, a re-lapsed Catholic by the way, was involved in a serious car accident near Kaikoura and put on life-support. He told me he saw the accident in slow-motion and felt no pain even though he was suffering major injuries. He also said his mind floated-back to when he was living in Scotland and re-calls vividly having a pint with his mates in his old pub.

So by default and using your logic when you die you end-up in a Glasgow pub!

Sorry to take the mystery out of something that-is interesting but entirely normal, re-flecting the persons sub-conscious memories in times when the reptilian part of the brain kicks-in and begins to over-ride other parts of ‘normal’ activity.

The brain is a complex organ and there’s nothing supernatural about this video at all.

Besides you keep mixing-up ‘near death’ with ‘death’.

They are totally different – like debating baldness is a hair colour.

Were I to pump two shot-gun rounds into the cranium of the turkeys in the video – they would not be coming back with any tales of hell, light at the end of tunnels –nor for that matter tales of Glasgow pubs!

Interesting subject never-the-less, and covered well in one of Dr Michael Shermers books.

Enjoy your day.

Paul.

Lucia Maria said...

Ropata,

I will answer your comment. It's taking a while, since it's going to be a biggie.

Lucia Maria said...

Paul, the mate of your father (what's a re-lapsed Catholic?) doesn't sound like he actually died.

I also think it's really problematic for anyone to base their whole theory on the afterlife on what one or two people saw, because, as you say, the subconscious kicks in.

So, on the one hand you use what your mate saw as proof there is nothing out there, and on the other hand you say that it doesn't matter what you see, it's only your mind anyway.

Interesting.

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