Wednesday, March 10, 2010

Andrei Culture of violence

I'm sure you have all heard that the Pope's brother has admitted that he hit children while he was choirmaster at a German boarding school.

If you haven't you can read the Times' hit piece take on it here.

It begins
The Pope’s brother gave a rare insight yesterday into a pervasive culture of violence at Roman Catholic institutions, admitting that he hit children while he was choirmaster at a German boarding school.
And the question to be asked if there was there a "culture of violence" at Bavarian Catholic schools in the early 1960s what was the culture of English schools like during the same period.

Let's ask about Eton, for example, a school where it was legitimate for senior pupils to beat junior pupils with a cane and a school at which the birch was used on the naked rumps of miscreant pupils until at least 1964, bare bottom canings lasting until 1970 and caning on clothed backsides until the mid 1980s.

I wonder why the editor of the Times didn't see this?

Perhaps it is because the Times editor, James Harding, was born in 1969 and educated at St Paul's, presumably after corporal punishment had been abolished.

10 comment(s):

Bearhunter said...

Well, if you're going to resort to "whataboutery" to defend the pope's brother for hitting kids, then allow me to join in.

St Mary's CBS in county Wexford, Ireland, 1975-1983: cracked skull, two broken ribs, broken finger (on three separate occasions), black eyes (X2), various instances of assault through punching, kicking, strapping, assault with a chair leg, being thrown against concrete walls, head slammed into wooden desk...Such was the joy of being a Christian Brothers boy in Holy Catholic Ireland within the past 30 years, or AFTER corporal punishment was banned. From religious and lay staff, I might add, but the most violent were always the brothers.

Lucia Maria said...


I'm willing to bet you're not a saint, either.

Lucia Maria said...


I'm willing to bet you're not a saint, either.

And NZ, just recently, a bus driver gets hauled before the courts for stopping a boy from pulling a girl's hair.

So, what your point? Catholics are always more violent? Is that it?

Lucia Maria said...

I could just say all of these examples prove men are violent. The Pope's brother is a man, therefore he's a violent son of a bitch.

Bearhunter said...

You misunderstand my point. You deflected the violence inherent in the Catholic school system in Germany by pointing out that CofE schools used violence too, all before corporal punishment was banned. In return I was simply pointing out that Catholic schools were very handy at using violence in their schools too, often AFTER corporal punishment was banned.

Fair play to you for sticking up for your church, but your blind conviction that any criticism of the church is simply satanically inspired anti-catholicism is one of the major reasons why so many members of the Catholic clergy in Ireland, for example, were able to get away with abusing children in their care. Politicians, teachers, police, and parents were simply incapable of believing any bad of the clergy and dismissed complaints out of hand. I find it sad that such blind allegiance still exists.

Lucia Maria said...

In return I was simply pointing out that Catholic schools were very handy at using violence in their schools too, often AFTER corporal punishment was banned.

Many parents in NZ still smack, even thought it's banned here as well.

I went to a Catholic school, and the worst that EVER happened to me was getting rapped on the hand with a wooden ruler by a nun because I wasn't paying attention.

My brothers attended a Marist brother's school, and they never came home with cracked skulls or broken ribs. Not even a bruise that I remember.

So, you can pull all the examples of extreme violence in Catholic institutions as much as you like - but, that doesn't really prove anything except for shit happens in particular times and places.

So either you believe what you are saying, and you're basically wetting yourself coming here to post (you're surrounded by violent Catholics on this blog, who would most likely rip off your head as look at you and how do you know we can't find out where you live) OR you're just a stirrer.

Mention anything to do with "violence" and you're a broken record, bringing every single instance of abuse you can, trying to cast aspersions.

So which one is it?

Oh, and the post on Satanism isn't mine. It's by our one non-Catholic poster.

KG said...

Bearhunter, phrases such as "the violence inherent in the Catholic school system in Germany" are misleading. Violence of one kind or another was inherent in all kinds of schools.
I was routinely beaten at boarding school. Same in the secular state school system in South Australia and it used to be same in public schools here in NZ.
And physical punishment was used in plenty of private schools long after it was banned.
This isn't to deny it also happened in Catholic schools, but what's your point? That it's somehow worse? Why?

And for what it's worth I believe that the breakdown in discipline and standards in schools began with the banning of physical punishment. There are worse things than a rap over the knuckles or being caned--how about being doomed to a life of mediocrity by teachers who cannot enforce discipline in the classroom, allowing the rowdier elements to prevent kids from learning?
The focus on the "horrors" of physical discipline drowns out the real horror of what public schools have been turned into.

ZenTiger said...

The "culture of violence" issue was a serious issue in a series of institutions, some of them Catholic institutions, some of them secular.

It often came down the the leadership of a few people, and the flow on effect from that. That is why there is such a variance between institutions. And in places like Ireland, there were hundreds if not thousands of Catholic schools, orphanages and so on.

Therefore, some high profile cases on Catholic institutions have tarred all of them with the same brush, and the inference is that all Catholic institutions were the same. That, thankfully is not the case.

The same applies to government run institutions, with some seriously sickening cases of routine abuse at the hands of a few people, and the issues hushed up or rolled over.

Some of those cases are currently before the NZ courts as I mentioned on another thread. Again, it's not only the issue of abuse that is of note, it's the lack of any meaningful action to follow up on complaints, to get the police involved and prosecute the wrong-doers and treat each incident as an isolated incident to be resolved without recourse to the law.

Decades later, people are coming forward demanding justice now that justice might be possible. Even then, at least one serious compliant against a government institution was ignored for 10 years. Disgusting.

The only reason it isn't front page news in NZ is that other than being government run, there is no handy scape goat like the Catholic Church to hang the blame on and perhaps less ability to gain financial compensation from (something I think the victims deserve, .

The sea change over the last 30 to 50 years has seen a lot of this sorted out. Unfortunately, as is often the case, people seem unable to differentiate between discipline and violence, but that is another story.

ZenTiger said...

Meanwhile, the government is there to look after us, and proves that there is always going to be a certain level of dysfunction in various parts of these sorts of institutions: Horrific abuse meets total incompetnence

Ironically though, other than the rapist, there is apparently no-one to blame for 10 years of inaction, and all the culprits cant even be named.

ZenTiger said...

Sorry for the typo, but I picked the right word to misspell :-)

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