A few months ago a senior Russian Priest, Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, made the comment that there should a national dress code for that nation. Here is the BBC's sniffy (and inaccurate) take on what he said. This is not the post for fisking that - that you know it exists is enough for now
A few days ago our friend David Farrar ran a post lamenting that the State Duma in the Russian Federation (the lower house) has introduced dress standards banning amongst other things mini skirts for members and employees of that august body. You can read that post Nooooooooo here.
Now DPF of course has no children, let alone daughters, I on the other hand have three daughters and like everyone with experience with daughters I have said, or my wife has said at some time or other "you can't go out looking like that"! Indeed the level where this phrase is likely to be employed by myself is substantially lower than that of my wife. Win some loose some I guess.
But femininity is the thing, do you want feminine daughters? How feminine and how should they express it? Below are six pictures of 21st century women, a survey you can take, putting on your parental hat and vote as to whether or not you' would be comfortable your daughter out in public as these women are
If you don't have children, try and imagine how it might be if you did
Disapprove: 34
Approve: 119
Disapprove: 27
Approve: 129
Disapprove: 52
Approve: 98
Disapprove: 65
Approve: 82
Disapprove: 54
Approve: 93
Disapprove: 45
Approve: 103
A few days ago our friend David Farrar ran a post lamenting that the State Duma in the Russian Federation (the lower house) has introduced dress standards banning amongst other things mini skirts for members and employees of that august body. You can read that post Nooooooooo here.
Now DPF of course has no children, let alone daughters, I on the other hand have three daughters and like everyone with experience with daughters I have said, or my wife has said at some time or other "you can't go out looking like that"! Indeed the level where this phrase is likely to be employed by myself is substantially lower than that of my wife. Win some loose some I guess.
But femininity is the thing, do you want feminine daughters? How feminine and how should they express it? Below are six pictures of 21st century women, a survey you can take, putting on your parental hat and vote as to whether or not you' would be comfortable your daughter out in public as these women are
If you don't have children, try and imagine how it might be if you did
Disapprove: 34Approve: 119
Disapprove: 27Approve: 129
Disapprove: 52Approve: 98
Disapprove: 65Approve: 82
Disapprove: 54Approve: 93
Disapprove: 45Approve: 103
Poll Closed
Guess I won't be seeing you at the roller derby in Wellington tonight then..
ReplyDeleteThe middle one on the bottom row is really creepy. The others are fine. There's nothing wrong with them. Why do women have to have "femininity"? And who decides that?
ReplyDeleteIt's the candles, isn't it Laurie?
ReplyDeleteFemininity is the result of being and acting and looking a woman. Not a slut or a rugby player.
The advantage of femininity is that women are then not treated inappropriately by men. Femininity urges restraint upon the opposite sex.
I can see why that would be a problem.
Explain that last sentence. How can you see it?
ReplyDeleteThrough your choice of words in your initial comment.
ReplyDelete"The middle one on the bottom row is really creepy."
Either you hate women, or you just like the accessible ones.
I was taking the piss.
ReplyDeleteAccessible ones? You are so, so matronising and offensive!
I don't think any of them are creepy (well, Amy Winehouse is, but that's more because she's obviously done a fair amount of crack), but you've got to admit that the bottom middle is clearly in danger. That much floaty, flammable material, with that many candles: it's a terrible fire hazard.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of my gentle femininity protecting me by "urging restraint" is the biggest load of bunkum I have ever heard.
ReplyDeleteGive me a real reason why I have to be hampered by long skirts and hair and I will actually bother thinking this is anything other than a contol game.
How is this concept of a certain type of femininity different from women wearing a burka to "urge restraint" in those slathering men who cannot possibly just respect our bodily autonomy.
You show just as much disrespect to men as women in this depressing topic.
The only theme I can find throughout all these women is that they are clearly passionate about what they do.
God forbid.
What exactly is a slut to you Saint Lucia? Which of the above women is a slut? And are there any other sports other than rugby that women aren't allowed to play (according to you)? If your daughter wanted to play rugby would you tell her not to? Do you have a list of approved activities for her other than marrying and being impregnated? Or that all she's allowed to do?
ReplyDeleteAre women who are treated inappropriately by men to blame for the actions of said men because they're not feminine enough?
What exactly do you mean by "restraint" Saint Lucia?
Maybe you could just cut the bullshit and say what you actually mean? Are you talking about sexual assault? Or sexual harassment? Or neither?
I mean this was a creepy post BEFORE you commented and now it's even more creepy.
Ok then, so you hate women. Yes, I can be incredibly offensive when I'm in the mood.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteYou're jumping to more matronising conclusions if you think I hate women. I've been married to one for the last 22 years. I sing, as the only male alto, with about 70 of them. If I dared show this to my wife I'd be deafened by laughter.
ReplyDeleteOh wow, we've been attacked by the feminist brigade. A bunch of mostly women hating women, joined by their few male sycophants.
ReplyDeleteBoganette,
What exactly do you mean by "restraint" Saint Lucia?
Maybe you could just cut the bullshit and say what you actually mean? Are you talking about sexual assault? Or sexual harassment? Or neither?
What I mean is a great many men today consider women to be sexual objects that they can use and discard at will.
Restraint means actually treating a woman as a person rather than someone you want to have sex with as soon as possible.
You would have trouble with that concept, too, wouldn't you my dear?
I have never treated a woman as a (solely) sexual object, or if I have not for a very long time. I am not a sycophant. I have never "discarded" a woman. I treat everyone, yea even you, as a person. I don't want to have sex with you. I don't want to have sex with Boganette. Only people like you are constantly thinking about it and espousing (pun intended) it.
ReplyDelete"My dear" - more matronising, disingenuous crap.
How do women have anything to do with the whether or not a male shows "restraint". Your comment didn't explain anything Saint Lucia.
ReplyDeleteTry again, honeypie.
Oh and just out of interest, why would I have trouble with the concept of treating a woman as a person? You're the one who just sees women as incubators ready to be filled up with their husband's sperm day in, day out, in between cooking and cleaning and praying.
Laurie,
ReplyDeleteSo with you, we are back to "accessible", which is what you reacted to originally. There are men who get their kicks just looking. As to whatever else you want to do, I really don't want to know.
"Matronising" ... very strange concept there, Laurie. No, don't defend it, I don't want to know about that either.
Why in God's name are you using the term "accessible" Saint Lucia? We're talking about women here. Do you know how utterly creepy you sound?
ReplyDeleteHow do women have anything to do with the whether or not a male shows "restraint".
ReplyDeleteSurely Boganette, you would that how a person presents themselves to others in their manner and in their dress tells others what type of person they are? You can't have lived in a glass bubble and not noticed this.
Oh and just out of interest, why would I have trouble with the concept of treating a woman as a person? You're the one who just sees women as incubators ready to be filled up with their husband's sperm day in, day out, in between cooking and cleaning and praying.
Something to do with how you come across when interacting with non-liberal women who cook and clean and pray. You sound like a lesbian. Pardon me if I'm wrong.
What? You're not making any sense at all. Well, not to anyone outside your head.
ReplyDeleteYou're a strange, strange woman. I'm off to do the cooking. In the kitchen where I can be objectified.
"Femininity is the result of being and acting and looking a woman. Not a slut or a rugby player."
ReplyDeleteThat's a bit of a stretch – sluts and rugby players are the same thing? can women play cricket? can men play netball?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWe do not use bad language on this blog Boganette,
ReplyDeleteits a standard we rigidly adhere to.
This is the comment that inspired this post.
ReplyDeleteThe treating of women as objects as opposed to treating them with respect.
But respect has to be earned, it cannot be demanded as a right.
You don't use bad language? But whoever posted the original comment used the word "slut". In my world, that's a far worse word - indicating denigration and judgment of women who are unknown to you - than anything any of we obviously-lesbian-yet-strangely-women hating-feminists could come up with.
ReplyDeleteYours puzzledly
Jackie
Oh please, I didn't use any bad language.
ReplyDeleteI'll repeat:
Saint Lucia - It doesn't matter how a woman dresses. There will be men out there who rape, abuse, disrespect and assault women - not matter how they're dressed. Victims are never responsible for their assaults. You need to realise that.
No seriously, what does a lesbian sound like? Hahahaha please tell me I really want to know!!
Yeah, if I hate women, how can I be a lesbian hahaha. That's a bit weird. Didn't think that one through did ya?
ReplyDeleteAnd Andrei - you shouldn't treat women as objects regardless of how much you don't like the way they're dressed. Why does a woman have to dress a certain way in order for you to treat her with respect, as a human being? Hasn't having daughters made you like a women a little bit? And made you think you should treat them with respect? And not abuse them? Hate on them? Call them sluts etc?
(And other human beings - though you don't seem to have any trouble respecting men)
So, basically you're saying that a woman has to earn the respect of a man so that he doesn't objectify her and violate her, that it isn't a right she can expect from birth... but a woman has to accept that a man has the right to violate her, until she earns his respect?
ReplyDeleteBecause that's how I'm reading your words.
Boganette,
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter how a woman dresses. There will be men out there who rape, abuse, disrespect and assault women - not matter how they're dressed. Victims are never responsible for their assaults. You need to realise that.
Absolutely. Totally agree.
However, I'm not talking about men who don't know what no means. I'm talking about men who just want someone to have sex with and goes out to find an appropriate (and willing) partner.
Women, in today's society feel an increasing pressure to say yes, because we are encouraged to think all men want to try before they buy. If they buy at all.
No seriously, what does a lesbian sound like? Hahahaha please tell me I really want to know!!
Anyone who talks about women being "ready to be filled up with their husband's sperm" has to have something going on. If not lesbianism, then what?
Do you understand that different cultures have a differing view of what constitutes femininity? Do you acknowledge that your view of femininity is very subjective?
ReplyDeleteAre you talking to me, Jackie? Or the blog post author, Andrei?
ReplyDeleteSo, basically you're saying that a woman has to earn the respect of a man so that he doesn't objectify her and violate her, that it isn't a right she can expect from birth... but a woman has to accept that a man has the right to violate her, until she earns his respect?
ReplyDeleteNope - it's a two way street, a man has to earn a woman's respect and if he does and she has earned his then and only then can a relationship progress.
It was called courtship in the old days.
This story is a little dated but not, I think, irrelevant:
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic Church in Rome made the extraordinary admission yesterday that it is aware priests from at least 23 countries have been sexually abusing nuns.
The Catholic Church in Rome made the extraordinary admission yesterday that it is aware priests from at least 23 countries have been sexually abusing nuns.
Most of the abuse has occurred in Africa, where priests vowed to celibacy, who previously sought out prostitutes, have preyed on nuns to avoid contracting the Aids virus.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vatican-confirms-report-of-sexual-abuse-and-rape-of-nuns-by-priests-in-23-countries-688261.html
Hahaha ummm I think you need to look up in the dictionary what a lesbian is.
ReplyDeleteListen, if you think that anyone who doesn't share your view of sex (that of lying on your back and praying really hard that it's over quickly and you end up pregnant) is a lesbian, then ummmm you're pretty much living in a world that is 90% lesbian.
So YAY! for lesbian world domination! Not that it matters, but I'm not a lesbian. I also don't view sex as being for procreation purposes only.
Also, if two people want to have sex with each other, and are freely able to consent - you should probably leave them alone and let them have sex with each other. It's kind of pervy to want to stop two consenting adults (who don't know you and you don't know them) from having sex. I mean, can't you just do some baking or like spend some time highlighting your favourite parts of the bible instead of worrying about consenting adults choosing to have sex with each other? You're not actually being forced to get involved. So maybe, live and let live? That's what Jesus would do.
Jesus would not be looking into people's windows and getting all hot and bothered about who they're having sex with.
Boganette,
ReplyDeleteYeah, if I hate women, how can I be a lesbian hahaha. That's a bit weird. Didn't think that one through did ya?
Lesbians are women apart. Different from those that get "filled up by their husband's sperm."
Um, Boganette,
ReplyDeleteJesus would not be looking into people's windows and getting all hot and bothered about who they're having sex with.
Who is on who's blog? Who is getting all hot and bothered?
Hahaha Lesbians are women apart? Is there something you're not telling us Saint Lucia?
ReplyDeleteAlso, how can I not be getting hot and bothered when you're talking about lesbians and possibly coming out to the entire blogosphere?
I kid! Saint Lucia! It's OK. Look dear, just focus on your family and your husband and don't stress about what consenting adults are doing with each other. You're going to get wrinkles. And you don't want that!
I'm talking to Andrei, Lucia Maria, because he was the one that was talking about femininity, and to you, because you are the one who is engaging with dissent. You're both obviously internet savvy in some way because you are, after all, members of a forums. Surely, then, you are capable of going to Google and researching the concept of femininity in some depth? Because your idea of accessibility, restraint and femininity possibly needs a bit more thinking through. Andrei spoke of daughters, and femininity. I am assuming, never having read this blog before, that your version of femininity is very valued, and that, as expressed by yourself, Lucia, it is to do with restraint. That, in fact, women who are sluts or rugby players, for example, are not feminine. I am simply asking you if you acknowledge that that is a very subjective idea of femininity. I personally have never been that interested in being feminine. But whether I am or not is irrelevant. What needs thinking about is - who are you to tell others what constitutes femininity? How do you know what sluts or rugby players feel? If they want to be "feminine" that's their thing. Not yours. Being anything doesn't preclude being anything else.
ReplyDeleteI had to disapprove the rugby photo because I wouldn't want her playing it (but then, I wouldn't want my son playing it either), and the Amy Winehouse one because I certainly couldn't stand the thought of my daughter wandering about as a skeletal, addled junkie. As to the rest, it's all good if that's what she wants.
ReplyDeleteThe one at bottom right (if you will pardon the expression) obviously forgot to put on her dress and now is waiting for a bus, still oblivious to her deshabille. This sort of thing can happen to a girl if she spends too much time thinking about feminism of the third kind and not enough about her wardrobe. This photograph should serve as a warning to all young ladies who are tempted to indulge in feminist discourse.
ReplyDeleteYou're jumping to more matronising conclusions if you think I hate women.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't seem to stop yourself and Boganette jumping to your own conclusions, by adding a lot more supposition to what Lucia says. Funny how you don't see yourself doing it to others, but get tetchy if the same thing happens.
I kid! Saint Lucia! It's OK. Look dear, just focus on your family and your husband and don't stress about what consenting adults are doing with each other. You're going to get wrinkles. And you don't want that!
Hey Laurie, is Boganette patronising or matronising in this instance?
Saint Lucia - It doesn't matter how a woman dresses
ReplyDeleteIs that like saying it doesn't matter what you say?
You're the one who just sees women as incubators ready to be filled up with their husband's sperm day in, day out, in between cooking and cleaning and praying.
ReplyDeleteAre you sure you aren't an FBI profiler Boganette? Awesome work. Apart from the getting it wrong bit.
Why do you lot keep looking for reasons to be abusive towards women? Why are you looking for loopholes in how a woman dresses, or in ZT's case - what she says - in order to show no 'restraint' or respect for them? It's creepy!
ReplyDeleteAlso, I know you asked Laurie - but what I said was just straight up good advice. Why aren't you guys busy planning for the rapture? You're wasting precious breeding time worrying about what women are wearing when they're not your daughters (who you obviously view as possessions that you can dress up like weird little gingham covered Barbie dolls). Just chill, relax. Dress up as Jesus and take sermons from your kitchen. Just don't stress so much about what consenting adults are doing. It has nothing to do with you. And just try to be good human beings who don't judge people for how they choose to express themselves physically. What someone wears isn't your business. Don't be creepy. OK? Nowhere in the bible does it say "rate women on your shitty blog as to whether or not you approve of their clothing". There is a lot of weird stuff in the bible but I know it doesn't say that. So try and be good Christians. Maybe pray on it. K?
Out come the freaks when their sin is challenged.
ReplyDeleteI think that was the first line of a hymn we sang at school.
ReplyDeleteBoganette, I asked a question, not express an opinion so there you go again seeing more than is there.
ReplyDeleteFor example this post was about parents worrying about how their teenage daughters dress might attract unwanted attention by men who treat women as objects rather than people. Some people see a short skirt and go "slut" instead of seeing this person as a child of Christ. It's a tough world.
Boganette acts like one of those people. She sees a glimpse of an idea that she feels shows too much skin and shouts a metaphorical "slut" at Andrei and Lucia. They show a little leg of an idea and suddenly Boganette is heaping scorn and derision on them. She's already decided what "kind of people" they are and is now justified in her own mind to treat them accordingly. Scorn. Patronizing terms. Suggesting far more than what was said by them
Talk about a teen daughter going out in inappropriate clothing and Boganette is mounting a case that what consenting adults do is no concern of ours. Did Boganette just mistake a button for a glimpse of nipple? "Stay in the kitchen and prepare for the rapture" she sneers. Why not just say "slut"? to our dirty ideas that consenting adults are discussing?
What's the excuse for being so abusive? Nothing more than the typical defense of such people caught in the act: "Well, they asked for it"
First off, the main problem with the claim that "provocative clothing" causes sexual assault is that it is just not true. Rape doesn't happen when a male sees a female who in unknown to him and wearing a short skirt, or showing lots of cleavage. 90% of sexual offenders are known to their victim: http://www.rapecrisis.org.nz/pdf/Date%20Rape%20(Read-Only).pdf The rape crisis website does not mention what those 90% of women are wearing when they get raped, because it's IRRELEVANT. As a matter of fact, in the tips to avoid rape it does not say anything about manner of dress because it’s IRRELEVANT.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I am really uncomfortable with the way men are being portrayed as all being potential rapists, as if they see a shirt skirt and can no longer control themselves. I like to give men, and people in general, a lot more credit than that. As a sexual being myself, I can say that I often see attractive men around wearing tight jeans that leave little to the imagination. I have never raped or otherwise assaulted any of them.
Lastly, it gets HOT in the summer! I often go out during the warmer months in a short skirt and strappy singlet, because I would suffer if I was wearing more than that. Forcing someone, even a teenage girl, to cover themselves head to toe "just in case" seems like a mild form of torture.
1. Unwanted attention, not necessarily rape.
ReplyDelete2. No, not "all men are rapists", but "protect my daughter from the one potential bad event". Whether it is logical or illogical is almost a side issue. It is not a commentary on the entire male species though.
3. Not forcing anyone to be covered "head to toe" on a "hot summers day" is not being said. No-one here is talking about forcing the wearing of sheets, blankets and burqas. It's about "dressing appropriately" which can still be quite a range.
Oh my golly gosh, what a lot of silliness (with a big dose of sense from B and a few others). and no, I am not a sycophant.
ReplyDeleteTo even consider that any of the images would be "inappropriate" for a woman is insulting. If I had a daughter, and she chose to look be like any of those images, I would feel nothing but pride and love for her.
"Lesbians are women apart"?? What, you mean they aren't real women?
What I really struggled with through this entire thing is why the heck women have to be "feminine" (whatever that means). And even why we continue to establish the duality of men and women when in fact it is a continuum.
I'm a male, but I would consider I have a "feminine" behaviour and personality. If my daughter had a masculine personality, it wouldn't concern me in the least.
Going back to the original point, there would be only a few issues I would have with how my daughter would "go out in public":
The basics of wearing the right amount for the temperature - I'd prefer her not to go out in skimpy clothes if it was freezing or over-dressed if it was hot.
Given the fact that men still prey on certain women that she was able to defend herself and be confident enough to be safe.
That she was happy and felt good about herself.
Oh and Paul - what is wrong with the photo you talk about? What "sort of thing can happen"?
ZT - Are you attempting to channel Hunter S. Thompson? It's not working.
ReplyDeleteI don't see being a slut as a bad thing. So if I called you a slut it wouldn't be an insult. My comments about consenting adults were made in response to Saint Lucia's comment "However, I'm not talking about men who don't know what no means. I'm talking about men who just want someone to have sex with and goes out to find an appropriate (and willing) partner." Don't worry, I totally get that it's hard for you to follow a busy thread. Big, scary ideas like your daughter dressing herself in the morning overwhelm you so obviously a blog thread with more than two people commenting is something that's just too complicated for you to follow.
You should be trying to change the attitudes of men who attack women with 'unwanted attention'. Instead of blaming your daughters if they're the victims of that unwanted attention. They will never feel safe coming to you if they've been hurt if you're pushing the message that how they dress is a factor in how they're treated by predators. As a father - you should consider that. The fact that you used the term 'asking for it' speaks volumes. I hope if you have daughters they have people other than you they can talk to about assault and 'unwanted attention'.
Poor Boganette;
ReplyDeleteYou don't get it do you. The way you present yourself in the world is highly correlated to the way the world treats you.
Thus you never see a customer services manager in a bank dressed like a prostitute on K Road, or with horrible facial piercings or tattoos.
It just doesn't work that way.
Now if you insist upon dressing and behaving in manners which make other people uncomfortable they will reject you.
And if you are a girl dress in a way that says "I'm Available" you will get that type of attention whether desired or no.
And if you are a guy and you dress in a way that is agro, you will get into lots of fights and so forth.
No point whining about it, the world isn't going to change to suit you.
But Andrei, that is not the way the world works. Not every woman who is dressed in a way that you deem inappropriate gets unwanted attention, and not every man who is dressed “agro” is the victim of random attacks. And if these things do occur, the attacker is always wrong; that why sexual harassment, assault and rape are against the law. Show me where is the law it says that these things are legal based on what the victim was wearing, and itemises exactly what these clothes are (because surely your personal opinions on fashion do not determine what a crime is or not).
ReplyDeleteAnd being harassed causes harm and is not analogous to thinking “hm, it’s unusual to see a bank teller dressed like that”. If you saw a bank teller dressed prostitute-y and harassed her, YOU would be in the wrong.
Frankly, I really hope I never pass you on the street during the summer. Your belief that wearing a short skirt and strappy revealing singlet will cause me to be harmed, and that’s just the way the world is, makes me a little afraid of you. Not men, not my outfit, but YOU.
@Rageaholic, there are very few men who have a covenant with their eyes not to look lustfully at women on the street... It's tough stuff (trust me) and harder when women are provocatively dressed...
ReplyDeleteHow people dress creates a sexual anticipation, and there is a difference between the sexes, in the case of women if they are scantily clad men assume they will be easier to convince to have consenting sex... This creates pressure on society in general to lower it's sexual standards...
Casual sex is damaging for individuals and society because of numerous reasons, e.g. feelings of emptiness, disease and addiction... It's why Christians surround sex with covenantal commitment...
So there is a link, from the Christian perspective, between how people are dressed and the pressure (not necessarily physical force) on them to have non-committed sex and that activity to have negative consequences for individuals and society...
I personally don't view it as progress when the moral tone is lower than it was...