Friday, July 2, 2010

Lucia Friday night free for all

Everyone welcome!

98 comment(s):

I.M Fletcher said...

First! Not much happening here. Got the fire going :)

Lucia Maria said...

Yay, Fletch!

I have the heaters on. And the gas fire and the heat pump. I'm increasing my carbon footprint dramatically as we speak.

I'm going to go and turn on all the lights just for the hell of it.

Ciaron said...

More results.

Geotechnical Engineering: A (toc)

Contract Administration: A-

Intermediate Structures: B


Might even out to an A- average but I'm well disappointed with the structures result.

Lucia Maria said...

You are still doing very well, Ciaron. You should only be disappointed if you know you could have worked harder, but just tried to wing it instead. Otherwise, be happy!

Ciaron said...

You should only be disappointed if you know you could have worked harder, but just tried to wing it instead.

Are you psychic? :)

I just found it very hard to "get up" for Structures, which was the last exam. It was only my high coursework mark which got me through, and probably contributed to my pride and false sense of security.

Lucia Maria said...

Ciaron,

LOL!

I try very hard not to be psychic.

I just know human nature and what high achievers are like.

Kris K said...

Evening all. Thanks for the invite Lucia Maria.
Have just created my account for your blog - have popped in before, but just never commented.

IM Fletcher, are you Fletch over on Kiwiblog?

Lucia Maria said...

Kris!

Welcome. I'm so glad you made it here.

Ciaron said...

Hey Kris, I enjoy following your battles @ Kiwiblog. it's so obvious that most of them don't really understand what they are arguing against. :)

Kris K said...

Thanks for the compliment, Ciaron. Do you comment there also, or just pop in to read?

Yeah, most of them have no real understanding of spiritual things - although some non Christians do have a reasonable working knowledge of the Bible, and get where Christians are coming from (eg Redbaiter).

Ciaron said...

I used to comment everywhere as Leonidas, but I got sick of people not getting it, calling me "Leonardo" and being otherwise stupid. So I decided to go by my Christian name, Alas I can't change my Wordpress account and so it remains :)

I.M Fletcher said...

Kris, I am indeed *takes a bow* :)

Lucia Maria said...

Kiwiblog is a tough place to be as a commenter. There are many in the Blogosphere, who started off there, that went off to do their own thing in their own blogs.

ZenTiger said...

Howdy folks. Good to see a bit of activity at the end of a busy week.

Well, off for the usual pizza order and vegetarian kebabs and then might do a post later on why it's OK for mere males to have an opinion on things...

Lucia Maria said...

Kris,

Whereabouts in NZ are you?

No need to be specific. We're quite happy to protect anonymity here.

Kris K said...

I guess everyone's making tea? - must make mine too.

Lucia, you said the following over on Kiwiblog:

"The way I see it, Catholicism is complete Christianity. Everything else is a cut-down version of the original. Because of Christ, the cut-down versions have a connection to Him, and I’m sure He knows His own, who through no fault of their own cannot recognise his very physical Church on earth. But, those, like yourself, are still on the outside… and I feel like the man (or woman) who is trying to help someone who have lived their whole life in a cave, come out into the light."

Would you clarify WHY the RC church is the "physical Church on earth", and what of those 'outside' as you put it?

And perhaps you could also explain how you believe one obtains salvation, and at what point is one 'saved'? (In your own words).

I'm busy for a while this evening, but will check back later tonight, or possible tomorrow depending on how you go timewise.

Kris K said...

LM, I'm in Wellywood - born and bred, how about you?

Ciaron, yes I remember reading your comments as 'Leonidas'.

Gidday, Fletch and ZT.

I.M Fletcher said...

Kris, I don't think the RC Church uses the word "saved" in the same manner as Protestants or Evangelicals. Whereas you would say you are 'saved', we would probably say 'we have been saved, we are saved, we continue to be saved'. It's a day-by-day process. I think it was St Paul who said, "I work out my Salvation with fear and trembling". I think it's something we work on every day rather than it being a one off thing.

Lucia will be able to explain better, I am sure :)

Kris K said...

'WWII In Colour' (on Prime) and dinner call. Chow for now.

Inventory2 said...

Evening all!

Kris K said...

Angus (hi), I always thought LRO (aka...) was hardcore ;) - but I know I certainly get his and Phool's goat - I have a few chuckles at some of their responses.

Thanks Fletch - always good to let others explain themselves before 'launching off' so to speak.

I'll reply after Lucia has a crack.

Lucia Maria said...

Kris,

Why. Well... Apostolic Succession to start with. Coupled with, is there any one else going for the position?

But they are trite statements that I don't expect to convince you with.

I think I'm going to crack under the pressure of having to explain this all in one blog comment.

I'm a revert. I left the Faith for a very long time (20 years, or thereabouts) and spent that time looking for God. And then I found Him back in the place I left Him. Imagine my surprise.

For a full treatment of Apostolic Succession, see Scott Hahn on the Papacy. It's all to do with "the keys". They've been passed down, through the ages. What the keys are, was well established in the Old Testament.

Inventory2 said...

@ Fletch - as a non-Catholic, I agree with your interpretation of salvation being a process. Sure, some people have "bells and whistles" salvation experiences, but for most, God is far more gentle. My own experience was that, once I made a commitment to follow Jesus, my "rough edges" have been gradually sanded off, but it will remain a work in progress until He is ready for me up there; hopefully, that is still some time away!!

Andrei said...

Hi all;
My this is a busy place tonite.

If we are talking about salvation my opinion is it is something we work towards and hope for but it is not something we should take for granted.

I'm still reeling from the absurdities of this week, not the least being that incredible blunder the Nats have made over the ETS.

Ciaron said...

@ Inventory2, good things take time. :)

FAIRFACTS MEDIA said...

Good Evening everyone!

Yes it is busy tonight.
Yes, Andrei, National is being pretty stpid and people will remember the stupidity every time they fill up, every time they pay a power bill, etc.
They will forget Liarboiur's ETS will have been double trouble.

But AGW is the new global religion, even if its High Priest has been defrocked somewhat this week.

Redbaiter said...

Hi all- Fletch, I'm sorry. I didn't realise you were the same poster at Kiwiblog. You fight bravely and well and I always regard your contributions there as very effective.

Inventory2 said...

Evening Red

@ Ciaron - good things do indeed take time; every day above ground is a bonus!

Ozy Mandias said...

Evening all.

Holidays now for me. Two weeks break from teaching.

Anyone interested in the Football. Quater finals begin tonight which I am happy about. The last two days break has been a blessing. At one stage I was up about 4 nights in a row wtahcing games at 2am and it took its toll.

Inventory2 said...

@ Ozy - too many late nights and early mornings have taken their toll. Brazil v Netherlands is booked to record on MySky, and I will watch it when I get up in the morning, while the other game is recording. Should be able to watch both before I go to golf!

Ciaron said...

How can you watch a bunch of overpaid posers who fall over at the slightest touch and roll around like they're suffering a compound fracture?



and don't get me started on the refereeing.

Andrei said...

You like the round ball game huh Ozzy?

Check out this short clip of a game at the Moscow Lokomotiv stadium where Lokomotiv are playing the Dynamos.

What makes this singular if you listen you can hear the Dynamo fans chant and the Lokomotiv fan's respond.

Dynamos fans chant
"Christ is Risen!"
and the Lokos fans respond
Truely he has Risen!

Can't see anything like this happening at Eden Park in the forseable future.

Went on through the whole game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZmJjPC1dUc&feature=related

Incidently the Lokos won 3/2

Lucia Maria said...

Hi FFM,

Yes, National is being stupid, but I think they think they can ride it out. But they are wrong. Boy, they bumble around, and after the masters of politics (Labour), it's even more obvious.

Ozy Mandias said...

Ciaron for a moment I thought your were talking about our politicians!!!

Football is a great game. Sure it can be ruined by a couple of players but so does every sport.
I have been bought up being a soccer player so perhaps that helps. - Tottenham is my team - this year we are going to beat Arsenal.

Cool clip Andrei - rugby supporters dont sing

Ozy Mandias said...

Apart from Welsh rugby supporters!!! But then again they dont play rugby.

Ozy Mandias said...

Apart from Welsh rugby supporters!!! But then again they dont play rugby.

Ciaron said...

Ozzy, check out Father Ted on Prime.

Lucia Maria said...

Redbaiter, I saved a copy of last night's Editing Teh Herald, so your comments haven't disappeared completely. But, they were pretty full on, so I haven't quite decided what to do with them.

On a related tangent, you might like : On Protectors, Predators – and Prey

Every man, after all, must at one or another time choose between the two most obvious roles open to him: predator or protector. It is no exaggeration to say that for many, that choice is the most consequential of their lives. And that is exactly why this question of modesty and immodesty concerns much more than a mere public handwringing about today's girls. At some point during the past decades, judging by the sartorial results we see today, a tipping point was reached. More men stopped seeing themselves as protectors – and started seeing themselves as potential predators instead.

I.M Fletcher said...

That's cool RB. I enjoy you smacking 'em around there, too, most of the time ;)

Ozy Mandias said...

Nice Ciaron. Those players move quicker than the English team!

Lucia Maria said...

Hi Ozy,

I have a two week break as well! I'm going to fill it up with gardening, house repairs, maybe some sewing and baking and then some more blogging than normal as well.

This term has been hard work. I don't know how everyone coped when there were only three terms in a year.

Lucia Maria said...

Oh Fletch, that reminds me. You really need to change your profile at Kiwiblog, so that it links back to here, so if someone wants to read more of what you've got to say, they know where to go.

Lucia Maria said...

I2,

I agree as well. It's definitely a process. Though, I've had more of the full on, purification by fire treatment.

It's not really anything I can particularly talk too much about, but I can say it started off with having to sort out an irregular marriage (potential of having to live as brother and sister with my husband forever) and got progressively more difficult from there.

I'm having a bit of a breather at the moment, not sure what's next.

Ozy Mandias said...

Hi Lucia

Long term alright. I have one hair cut a term and this 11 week term has left me looking like the Wild man of Borneo. Next year we have a 13 week term. Heaven help me!!!
Haircut tomorrow

Ciaron said...

No way! this year is flying by, and not in a good way.

Ozy Mandias said...

Interesting article Lucia.
We are all called to be protectors at differeent times of our lives, particularly when we have children. Sadly, often when people need to stand up they dont and then when they do stand up it is too late.

Lucia Maria said...

13 weeks!!! Seriously? That's just ... horrible.

I do the one hair cut a term with my boys as well. My older one keep combing his hair constantly to stop it from curling, I have to take his comb away from him to make him pay attention.

FAIRFACTS MEDIA said...

Hi Lucia

Is Zen back from the pizza place yet.
I had pizza last night from that chain with the naughty name.
The pizza was disappointing but the lamb shanks were good.
Something else disappointed me too last night.
I had my first Lindauer in ages and did not like it.
I will have to stock up on the Montana Reserve bubbles while it is on special at New World.

Redbaiter said...

Redbaiter, I saved a copy of last night's Editing Teh Herald, so your comments haven't disappeared completely. But, they were pretty full on, so I haven't quite decided what to do with them.

Hi Lucia Maria- You don't need to get down and dirty like I do. I don't think you should publish those comments. :)

Can I try to explain two things-

1) The center has to be pulled to the right. It won't happen unless the right wing spectrum is stretched further than what it is today.

All that has happened over the last few decades is that the door has been shut firmly on political discussion that extends further than that point on the spectrum that the left approve of. And they keep chipping away even at that point, continuing to draw the center further and further left. This strategy has to be countered and the center has to start moving right instead of left.

If you look at those who draw the most hate from the left, it is always those who threaten to alter this midpoint by expressing views that might move it right.

I do not care what people might say about me, for my strategy has always been the same- seeking to draw the center further to the right.

2) The profanity too is part of my strategy. They expect a Conservative to be a Conservative. Well mannered, polite, reticent. They see us as soft targets. The Redbaiter persona, with its full on approach decorated with passion and profanities, throws them completely off balance.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I do not expect everyone to be/ behave like myself on the blogosphere, but it is essential that there is a viewpoint out there expressed in the way I express it, or else we'll all just follow their directions on how to behave and shape ourselves into that mold and they'll win the next few decdes too.

There has to be a complete change of direction. It will not happen while we let the left frame the debate, set the rules, and control the dialogue.

We need to break free of the PC prison, and let them know in no uncertain terms just how offensive we find their ideas.

I repeat, they need to be made to understand just how offensive their ideas are to people who do not buy into socialism. Many of them have no idea on this. Do not know they are being offensive. And they do not know it because we have never complained enough.

ZenTiger said...

Hi FFM, yeah, I'm over here in the quiet corner :-)

Ciaron said...

All right, I'm off now. Night all.

FAIRFACTS MEDIA said...

Hope the pizza was good ZenT

Now two things surprised me about the blogosphere this week.

The first was the lack of coverage given to the crazed sex poodle Al Gore.

The second was the comments of John Key five years ago concerning Liarbour's ETS plans.


It was strange to see the latter first on Andrew Bolt's site, especially consideing he is Australian.

Oh and Redbaiter, you are right in your attempts to pull us all a little to the right.

Redbaiter said...

Also, one more thing-

I am frequently talking past those whom I might be in a debate with. There are the blog debaters, but there are also many who are just readers.

Often it is more important to get fresh ideas, implant new perspectives and get people (the readers as well as the debaters) thinking differently than it is to win any particular argument.

It is why I often appear repetitive. There are always fresh readers, and although older patrons of the blogosphere might have heard a particular viewpoint again and again, there are always going to be people out there who haven't heard it.

It is all about getting ideas out there, and extending the political spectrum in a direction that has for a long time been a no-go area.

Lucia Maria said...

Hi Andrei!

Redbaiter,

Thanks for that.

I understand the strategy. Though, it must wear on you having to take that on whenever you engage online.

Lucia Maria said...

Kris,

Just north of Wellywood, though I grew up where Peter Jackson has his studios. I still find it hard to get over how busy it is there on the main streets now.

Redbaiter said...

I know you guys don't like to talk politics on the FNFFA, but its really more of a personal explanation to people I care about than a political matter.

I.M Fletcher said...

Lucia, will do!

ZenTiger said...

I don't mind talking politics on a FNFFA. It just tends to be in a more casual manner.

ZenTiger said...

Pizza was great FFM. You are right about the lack of traction on the scandals. People are very much feeling beaten down and ignored I suspect. Just another tax by yet another taxer, perhaps.

If it were an election year, maybe the issue would be debated more, but I can't imagine what alternative party we could rally around. ACT would be the only real alternative, but they are treated very harshly by the media and they need to think hard about their branding and go-to-market strategy. JB has been doing a good job though.

ZenTiger said...

Tonight's Pun:

Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath.

This made him... A super-calloused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis.

I.M Fletcher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lucia Maria said...

Fletch, there's only one way to do it that I've found. Use the login screen on Kiwiblog to say you've lost your password, so it sends you a new one. When you log in with the new password, you can then edit your profile.

Lucia Maria said...

Redbaiter,

Again, understood and appreciated.

Though, I can't help but wonder how you'd come across without the persona. More compelling, I think.

I.M Fletcher said...

Lucia, is OK, I figured it out. I was expecting the change to show up on all my old posts as well, but it only does on the new ones :)

I.M Fletcher said...

LOL, Zen @your pun

I read a similar thing once in a book of skits my mother had from an old British radio show called "My Word!" starring Frank Muir. What it was, was a kind of game show in which the contestants were given a phrase and they had to make up a story to end up with a humorous pun.

Muir was given that line and came up with a story (I can't remember it all), about his wife going away and a list of chores to do before she got back. One of them was him trying to thaw out some frozen peas, one of which goes flying while he's cracking it in the sink, and he can't seem to find it. Later on his notices the dog seems deaf in one ear and he wonders if the pea had lodged there.

Another thing was he had to buy a cauliflower and strew some of the leaves around the place so his wife would think he had been eating healthy. Something about the fride, and elastic (which i can't now remember) and the fact that he'd been mistaking garlic powder for salt, sprinkling it liberally on everything he ate, and noticing the varnish on the front door peeling when he opened it to a salesman.

Anyway, of course, the to-do list read at the end, Soup, a cauli, fridge, elastic, eggs, pea, halitosis.

There's only one other story I remember from the book about an Eskimo out on the river who gets colder and colder and eventually starts chopping bits of his boat up so he can make a fire in the middle. of course he dies, and the moral is "you can't have your kayak and heat it, too"

:)

I.M Fletcher said...

ps, found the Frank Muir story HERE online - quite amusing :)

Lucia Maria said...

Oh good, Fletch!

I have to go to bed - it's nearly midnight! I think I'm still wired from last night, when I had to drink coffee in the evening to keep me awake for the drive home. Didn't go to sleep till 2am. That's just too late.

Kris K said...

Lucia,
I really am interested in HOW the process of salvation 'starts' from a RC perspective. And then how this 'process' continues. You may like to expand on baptism, communion and anything else that contributes to this process along the way, so to speak.

And like I asked before; what of those Christians 'outside' of the RC church? Are they saved? If so, how? If not, why not?

Scripture to support the above would be good too.

Thanks in advance.

Kris K said...

Lucia,
I went to college near Jackson's studio - Rongotai College. Grew up on the south coast of Wgtn, and moved up to the northern suburbs in the early 80s. From you mentioning your boys (sound like teenagers) we must be of a similar vintage.

I received Christ at 17 and have been a Christian for 30 odd years. And while I'm still growing in my faith, I like to think I have a reasonable understanding of God's word, and of His character and will - not that I try to second guess Him by any means. ;)

I have preached in my church, at old folks homes, been involved in a prison ministry, winessed door to door, and taught Sunday school with a group of older teenage boys. As well as doing my own in depth biblical studies. Of course I try to extend this with my contributions on Kiwiblog, as well as making general comments on morality, etc within other political type debates. I guess I try to "let my light shine" wherever the Lord may place me :)

Lucia Maria said...

Kris,

I'm just trying to find a really good summary that answers some of your questions.

Lucia Maria said...

Kris,

Also, I'm not quite as old as you. :)

My boys are aged 9 & 13. And the one I'm married to is your age.

Here's a post from a couple of years back that describes a part of my spiritual journey, so to speak: From Vampire to Christ.

Redbaiter said...

Lucia, there's so many foul scum over at Kiwiblog, and you're a lady. You reckon its worth it? Wrestling with pigs etc?

Lucia Maria said...

RB, not anymore. It's Sunday, I'm out and about, and the thread is too long to load on my phone. But more than that, I've done my bit for now. Abortion is one of the few things that gets me riled up.

Lucia Maria said...

I really should stop reading that thread.

I've not worked in a family planning clinic nor have I been a concentration camp guard. Both would make me cry - however, both are anti-life, and compassion extends to trying to get people to see that these places are evil, no matter how good or heartbroken the workers are.

My password for dpfs is on my computer at home, hence this comment here.

I.M Fletcher said...

Yep, abortion is one of those things where people have an opinion and aren't likely to change their minds because of a blog post. The Liberals and feminists have come up with a lot of rationales that make it sound OK ("it's not human or "viable" until a certain age and until then it's OK to abort it").

Nothing is going to convince me otherwise though.

Lucia Maria said...

And MikeNZ wants us to undergo a worldwide witch hunt, and he considers that "Christlike".

Kris K said...

Part 1

Lucia,
Sorry I haven't got back to you since the weekend - been busy.

I would like too pick up on one aspect only at this stage - the issue of baptism; what the Bible says abour it, and how exactly it relates to our salvation.

I'm not going to cite all sorts of Bible scholars, but will rather just use God's word to substantiate my claims. I trust that the Holy Spirit will lead you to clarity on this issue.

Firstly, Salvation - what is it and how do we obtain it?

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Foundational to salvation is 'belief' on Christ AND 'confession' of that belief. The above verses in Mark and Romans make this clear. The confession isn't what saves us, but is rather the evidence of genuine salvation; of not being "ashamed" of Christ (Rom 10:11).

So what of baptism (Mk 16:16)?
Baptism is that 'confession' of the individual's belief and faith in Christ. It is a picture of dieing to sin, being buried with Christ in death, and of being raised again to newness of life; of becoming a new creature in Christ immediately following salvation. If salvation is a 'process', then it is impossible for a Christian to ever claim they are a new creature in Christ. For when is the 'process' ever complete?

Notice also that belief MUST come before 'confession' of that belief. This is why baptism (confession) must also follow belief in Christ; salvation.

Mark 16:16 highlights this when it says, "but he that believeth not shall be damned." It doesn't say "he that believeth not [and is not baptised] shall be damned".

There are two example I would like share with you that highlight this.

Firstly, Philip and the Eunich.

The Eunuch, genuinely saved followed by baptism by confession:

Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Notice that Philip, prior to agreeing to baptise the Eunuch, asks, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest". The Eunuch replies, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". The Eunuch makes verbal confession of his belief and faith in Christ. Baptism is the outward manifestation of his belief in Christ and of his verbal confession. Such verbal confessions form part of baptism in many churches today which follow biblical baptism.

Kris K said...

Part 2

My second example is Simon the sorcerer.

Simon believed and was baptised BUT not saved:

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
Act 8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
Act 8:11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

It is obvious that even though Simon may have said he 'believed', and was then baptised, that God knew his heart; and that his profession was NOT genuine. Peter makes this clear in verses 20-22.
So without genuine belief in Christ for one's salvation, baptism is meaningless as highlighted by Simon the sorcerer.

Infant baptism (?):
This also highlights the problem with infant baptism - that it is meaningless as genuine belief is impossible without understanding. And as infants cannot understand the gospel message then to baptise them only results in them 'getting wet'. Belief must ALWAYS preceed confession through baptism.

How many baptisms exactly are there?
We know that there was the baptism of Moses (1 Cor 10:2), the baptism of John, and then the baptism following belief on Christ for salvation (which we have just considered). But we ALSO have another baptism which we haven't considered yet.

So what do we make of Eph 4:5 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," regarding baptism?
It is obvious there is only ONE baptism which relates to this verse. This baptism IS central to salvation; and it has nothing to do with water.

Kris K said...

Part 3

The UNCONSIDERED Baptism:
So what is this baptism which we haven't considered yet?
John the Baptist is the first to mention it:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

So THIS baptism is a baptism of 'fire' and of the Holy Ghost, and is carried out by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. This baptism occurs at salvation and is an operation carried out by God Himself. We are only beneficiaries of THIS baptism when we believe upon the Lord Jesus for our salvation. Subsequent water baptism is ONLY a picture of what happens at salvation.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

This SAME baptism is identified as being baptised into ONE body (the Body of Christ) by the Spirit. We 'drink' into the One Spirit. There is NO water involved here.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This SAME baptism is identified as being baptised into "His death"; of literally being immersed into Christ's death. This occurs at salvation, and is 'water free'. As I said before, we die with Christ at salvation. After salvation we are new creatures in Christ. This is NOT a process, but an immediate spiritual transaction which occurs at the point in time when an individual puts their faith, trust and belief in Christ ALONE for their salvation.

Water baptism, which follow salvation, only pictures what has occured at the time we believed upon Christ.

Christians at the point of salvation are ALSO sealed with the Holy Spirit:

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

As well as being baptised into ONE body (the Body of Christ) by the Spirit at the point of salvation, we are also SEALED with the Holy Spirit as a sign of God's ownership at the point of salvation. This seal indicates that the spiritual transaction is complete, and it is at this point that the individual is indeed a new creature in Christ.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This "day of redemption"; the redemption of our flesh, occurs when we receive our glorified body, that we might dwell with God in His presence. Until that time the struggle between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the flesh nature of all true believers in Christ will continue. But despite this struggle we are, and remain, sealed by the Holy Spirit. And as a result we are secure in our salvation; we are secure in God.

Kris K said...

Part 4

In conclusion:
As I first outlined at the beginning in Rom 10:9:
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Belief upon Christ alone is the foundation of true salvation.

The Apostle John makes this clear:
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Salvation is founded upon Christ alone; salvation is knowledge, and is the result of believing on the name of the Son of God. Through this believing upon Christ we "know that [we] have eternal life". Water baptism plays no part in this belief and knowledge of our salvation; it ALWAYS follows genuine salvation.

A warning:
Those churches and indivduals who make water baptism a work, and add it as a condition to salvation, are actually changing the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is made clear by

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by faith ALONE; salvation is a gift of God with no pre-conditions attached other than faith and belief.

Those that add to, or subtract from, the gospel of Christ are given a strong warning by Paul:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This speaks of those who may have 'said' they believed, and even claimed they were Christians, but who were not as Christ never knew them. Those like Simon the sorcerer. Those who change the gospel and therefore believed on another Jesus:

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I believe the Roman Catholic church preaches "another gospel" and therefore believes upon "another Jesus". And those who do not repent and come to Christ on His terms will suffer the consequences of His saying, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

I have taken a lot of time to outline this for you, Lucia. I hope you take the time to prayerfully consider these words in light of scripture ALONE, and of the witness of the Holy Spirit.

I.M Fletcher said...

Wow, Kris, you have a huge post there! It will take me a while to absorb all of that, but just a couple of short ideas that strike me now.

Jesus also says in John 3:5 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (emphasis mine).

It says in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

There is a link HERE as to how the Early Church Fathers thought Baptism necessary.

That great teacher of the Church Augustine said -

"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

and -

"[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

Kris, I think I asked you once before, but not sure if you answered. Do you consider the testimony of the Early Church and the Early Church Fathers? The Church continued after the book of Acts which is why the RC Church places emphasis of both Scripture AND Tradition. I know that a lot of people have been convicted by what the Early Fathers wrote.

A very learned man in my Parish used to be of another Christian faith and was actually a Pastor in that Church. After much study (including the Fathers) he came to believe that the RC Church was right and brought himself and his whole family in - even though it meant condemnation from the other Church.

Personally, I am an interested as to what you consider the 'cut off point' - eg, when does the Authority of the first Apostolic Church end for you? 60AD? 100AD? 200AD? Or when Luther split the Church?

Or do you totally believe in Sola Scriptura? But, nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the only authority. Jesus gives that to Peter, along with the "keys to the Kingdom Of Heaven", the forgiveness and remission of sins on Earth, and the command to "feed my sheep, feed my lambs" ie, Peter is now the Shepherd to which Jesus entrusts his lambs on Earth.

I.M Fletcher said...

I will also quote Stan Williams here -

But the most fascinating thing I heard all evening was that the Bible interprets itself. I've head this before. But it leaves me slightly confused. Where in the Bible am I informed as to which of the 66 or 72 are supposed to be in the Bible? Or do we not need an infallible authority (e.g. a church council) to establish an infallible authority (e.g. the Bible)? And why does the Bible not include one or more of the dozen of letters and writings from the early Apostles such as the Gospel According to Peter, The Epistle of Barnabas, or The Didicae? Who determined what was to be in the Bible and what was to be excluded? If the Bible can interpret itself, then surely it can resolve it's own evolution. And if the Bible can interpret itself, then why are their 20,000 + different Christian churches all claiming that the other church is misinterpreting the Bible?



Before the Protestant Reformation, the answer was very simple. In fact, the answer now is the same as it was for the first 1500 years. There is an authority that listens and obeys the Holy Spirit as prescribed by Christ.



Or, where does the Bible say that the Bible is the only authority on morals and faith apart from men, led infallibly by the Holy Spirit, to interpret it?



As a Roman Catholic there is a very easy answer to the authority issue, because it is so explicitly stated in the Bible. And contrary to what many non-Catholics believe, the teachings of the Church are infallible not simply because they come from a man who is the head of an institution, but because they come from the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said they would


The Catholic Church has a simple answer. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Church (which contains all believers, including priests, religious, bishops and the Bishop of Rome) and through prayer, fasting, dialogue, debate, and study...the will of God about a particular issue is arrived at and proclaimed by the Church as true. The process in each case takes years. Never has a Pope arbitrarily, outside that normally very long process of discerning God's will, made any dogmatic proclamation. And never has a Pope made a proclamation of truth without the consensus of the other bishops of the church. Thus, while the Pope is said to have the office of the keys, he has never used them without being in union with the doctrine of the full church. Furthermore, no doctrine has ever been proclaimed unless the church can confirm that the doctrine was believed and held true during the lives of the Apostles and in keeping with their direct teachings. Therefore, although some doctrines have been proclaimed since the last apostle died, the Church can demonstrate that the first church under the Apostles' leadership held such beliefs. Like the law of gravity, the proclamation of the law later on does not create it, but only explains and articulates what has always been true.

Lucia Maria said...

Thanks, Kris.

I can see that it would have taken you quite a lot of time. In respect of that time taken, I will be careful with my answer.

However, I cannot do it with "scripture alone". I'd have to leave all my knowledge at the door, which doesn't really work. And honestly, I doubt anyone really does that.

Andrei said...

Kris what do you make of this passage fro Acts Chapter 8 then

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Lucia Maria said...

Andrei,

Have a read of Kris' Part 1 - He's got that story there.

I.M Fletcher said...

THIS SITE might also answer some questions.

The thing is, is that Baptism is one of the Sacraments. It isn't just an external acknowledgement of an internal decision by the person being baptized. Like Confirmation (and with the other Sacraments), God pours a special grace and blessing on the person - they are marked indelibly. Perhaps the above link will help.

Lucia Maria said...

Kris,

I've been reading and re-reading what you've posted. And I've noticed that you don't mention Jesus' own words on the matter of water:

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Respondit Jesus : Amen, amen dico tibi, nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua, et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei.

Lucia Maria said...

Fletch,

Thankyou for linking to that site. I found it years ago, and had it bookmarked, but when my harddisk died several years ago, I lost that link. I've thought of it from time to time over the years, and I'm so glad you've posted it. :):):)

I.M Fletcher said...

You're welcome :)

And yep, I mentioned John 3:5 in a response above as well. I does strike me as being a very strong argument for Baptism.

Francisco Castelo Branco said...

this is like a meeting here in blog every friday?

Kris K said...

Fletch 4:17 pm 07-07-10,
[Lucia asked some of this too]

Part 1

Born of water and born of the Spirit
Let's look at John 3:5 and the general context around it.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Notice Christ is answering Nicodemus' question about how to be born again. Nicodemus is hung up on 'physical' birth alone. Christ qualifies this with his answer which follows in vss 5 & 6.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Verse 6 is actually the key to understanding vs 5.
Firstly, Christ became a MAN - salvation is only available to those of human decent (ie not animals, not angels, not nephilim - but FULLY HUMAN BEINGS). This is where the "Except a man be born of water" fits in - this speaks of 'the waters' within the birth sack; the same waters which break at physical birth. The first part of vs 6 confirms this; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh".
Similarly "Except a man be born of ... the Spirit" (vs 5) is explained by "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (vs 6).

So for human beings, being born via a human mother is one qualification for salvation (don't know where this would leave clones if they can be born separate from a human mother?). One must be human.

The second qualification is being "born of the Spirit". This is the spiritual renewal, or being made spiritually alive which occurs at salvation. (Prior to salvation we are spiritually dead). Notice this is the work of the [Holy] Spirit which gives rebirth to the [human] spirit.

This is the "Spirit Baptism into the Body of Christ" (no water) which occurs at the point of salvation (outlined earlier), and which water baptism pictures (via public declaration/profession).

Note:
If you read the entire chapter of John 3 you will see the emphasis is upon BELIEF being foundational to everlasting life/eternal life/salvation: vss 12, 15, 16, 18, 36.

Christ Himself said:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John the Baptist said:
Joh 3:33 He that hath received his [Christ's] testimony hath set to his seal [witness/seal of the Spirit] that God is true.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Kris K said...

Fletch 4:17 pm 07-07-10,
[Lucia asked some of this too]

Part 2

A Good Conscience versus external works
Let's look at 1 Peter 3:21.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Notice that this is a 'figure', and is compared to Noah being saved from the flood.
Also, the bracketted portion (vs 21) is important:
This highlights that this is an act of faith via a "good conscience", not the external works of "putting away of the filth of the flesh".
This is an INTERNAL transformation. And even if/when the flesh may rise up this does not invalidate genuine salvation.
Once again the external expression of water baptism is ONLY a picture of the Spiritual baptism which has already happened at the point of salvation.

Kris K said...

Fletch 4:17 pm 07-07-10,
[Lucia asked some of this too]

Part 3

Regarding so called early church fathers and tradition:

I reject BOTH.
The word of God works in conjunction with its author; the Holy Spirit. Additionally, the Holy Spirit indwells those 'in Christ', and therefore a Christian has the benefit of the author of God's word being present to teach, instruct, and give understanding to God's Word.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
********
"Personally, I am an interested as to what you consider the 'cut off point' - eg, when does the Authority of the first Apostolic Church end for you? 60AD? 100AD? 200AD? Or when Luther split the Church?"

Or do you totally believe in Sola Scriptura? But, nowhere in the Bible does the Bible say that it is the only authority. Jesus gives that to Peter, along with the "keys to the Kingdom Of Heaven", the forgiveness and remission of sins on Earth, and the command to "feed my sheep, feed my lambs" ie, Peter is now the Shepherd to which Jesus entrusts his lambs on Earth.


The church only has authority when it is a) made up of believers in Christ, and b) while it remains in submission to the authority of the word of God. The global church is made up of those 'in Christ', while the local church is (or should be) a subset of the global church. As I have said before; there is NO ONE denomination, there is NO apostolic succession (the last apostle, John, died around 100 AD), and there are NO KEYS (whatever they are meant to be) given to Peter.

All believers in Christ are to "feed my [Christ's] sheep", especially those in the role of Bishop (Pastor/Minister) and Elders (preachers/teachers). Peter is ONLY a type in this regard. But this is the responsibility of all the saints (ALL believers are saints); of ALL God's priests (ALL believers are priests).

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

And regarding the Bible being the ONLY authority:

Act 17:11 These [the Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, [to see] whether those things were so.

This is MY aim: to be like the Bereans - God's word ALONE.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I believe the Roman Catholic 'church' is guilty of BOTH adding to, and subtracting from God's word. Others, too, are guilty of this (Mormons, Jehoveh's Witnesses, etc). A dire warning to those guilty of such things. When we move away from God's word ALONE we open ourselves to "the wisdom of man", not to mention "the doctrines of devils". Eternal danger exists for those who submit to such authorities.

Once again, my aim is to inform, not offend.
We are all encouraged to be like the Bereans that we might not be deceived.

Lucia Maria said...

Hey Kris,

Thanks for that. However, I find your explanation negating Christ's words on water baptism to be a contortion, to say the least.

Seriously.

I've been spending quite a lot of time thinking about this (and yes, asking for clarity through prayer).

I've gone back to reading Jesus of Nazareth, by Pope Benedict, and he makes the wonderful point of the connection of the start of Jesus' public ministry with His Baptism (in water) and then what Jesus says at the end of the Gospel of Matthew:

28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

18 Et accedens Jesus locutus est eis, dicens : Data est mihi omnis potestas in cælo et in terra: 19 euntes ergo docete omnes gentes : baptizantes eos in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti: 20 docentes eos servare omnia quæcumque mandavi vobis : et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus, usque ad consummationem sæculi.

The Pope says of Jesus's Baptism and what Jesus then tells His disciples to do at the end:

At this point I would merely like to underscore three aspects of the scene. The first one is the image of heaven torn open: Heaven stands open above Jesus. His communion of the will with the Father, his fulfilment of "all righteousness" opens heaven, which is essentially the place where God's will is perfectly fulfilled. The next aspect is the proclamation of Jesus' mission by God, by the Father. This proclamation interprets not what Jesus does, but who he is: He is the beloved Son on whom God's good pleasure rests. Finally, I would like to point out that in this scene, together with the Son, we encounter the Father and the Holy Spirit. The mystery of the Trinitarian God is beginning to emerge, even though its depth can be fully revealed only when Jesus' journey is complete. For this very reason, though, there is an arc joining this beginning of Jesus' journey and the words with which he send his disciples into the world after his Resurrection: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". (Mt 28.
:19) The Baptism that Jesus' disciples have been administering since he spoke those words is an entrance into the Master's own Baptism - into the reality that he anticipated by means of it. That is the way to become a Christian.


Now, of course you mention that when we are Baptised, that we are Baptised into Christ's death, when you said:

This SAME baptism is identified as being baptised into "His death"; of literally being immersed into Christ's death. This occurs at salvation, and is 'water free'. As I said before, we die with Christ at salvation. After salvation we are new creatures in Christ. This is NOT a process, but an immediate spiritual transaction which occurs at the point in time when an individual puts their faith, trust and belief in Christ ALONE for their salvation.

Lucia Maria said...

Part II

First off, I'd like to agree that something definitely happens at Baptism that is not a process. But I'll get back to that.

Pope Benedict has been very helpful in understanding all of this more fully. As you'd expect of a theologian, who spent years teaching and is now the Pope. But anyway, this is what he says about water and what it signifies.

On one hand, immersion into the waters is a symbol of death, which recalls the death symbolism of the annihilating, destructive power of the ocean flood. The ancient mind perceived the ocean as a permanent threat to the cosmos, to the earth; it was the primeval flood that might submerge all life. The river (Jordan) could also assume this symbolic value for those who were immersed in it. But the flowing waters of the river are above all a symbol of life. The great rivers - the Nile, the Euphrates, the Tigris - are the great givers of life. The Jordan too, is - even today - a source of life for the surrounding region. Immersion in the water is about purification, about liberation from the filth of the past that burdens and distorts life - it is about beginning again, and that means it is about death and resurrection, about starting life over again anew. So we could say that it is about rebirth.

But when Jesus goes down into the waters, he doesn't go down as a sinner, he goes down as our saviour. He descends into death, into Hell, he sanctifies water by his action, and then when he comes up, his baptism is completed by the Holy Spirit (just as our baptisms are completed by Confirmation, the second part of baptism).

When John the Baptist said he only baptised with water, that didn't mean that water was inadequate, it just meant Jesus hadn't come along and set everything up, yet. John's baptism foreshadowed the real thing.

Lucia Maria said...

I'll have to go and read all your new stuff now. I really should do this as posts, but then I thought I'd just do a quick reply for now....

Lucia Maria said...

Now to "belief". You said "Belief upon Christ alone is the foundation of true salvation."

I don't disagree. Belief, when active, when it is the assent of the will to God, when we say "yes" to Him, allows Him to act, allows Him to save us.

But where we differ is that I believe that a person can say "no" to God, and that "no" cuts them off from salvation. They need to repent and say "yes" again. And the "yes" needs to be there at death, ie we need to persevere to the end.

Now I know you will say, based on what you've said above, that that is impossible - but you're wrong.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But prove all things: hold fast that which is good.

Omnia autem probate : quod bonum est tenete.

Having cut myself off from God before (I still remember what it felt like), I will not do it again now that He's taken me back. Why do you think there is the story of the Prodigal Son if this were not possible?

Kris K said...

Lucia 6:12 pm 08-07-10,

Hi Lucia,
I'll let you catch up with my latest stuff today. Fletch may want to comment too.

But regarding you saying,

But where we differ is that I believe that a person can say "no" to God, and that "no" cuts them off from salvation. They need to repent and say "yes" again. And the "yes" needs to be there at death, ie we need to persevere to the end.

Now I know you will say, based on what you've said above, that that is impossible - but you're wrong.

Having cut myself off from God before (I still remember what it felt like), I will not do it again now that He's taken me back. Why do you think there is the story of the Prodigal Son if this were not possible?


I'm not denying that we can, as believers, grieve the Holy Spirit, and hence can lose fellowship with God. But that is a matter entirely different from 'Losing Your Salvation'.
Remember it is God that saves us, and once saved NOTHING can tear us out of His hands - including US through backsliding, grieving the Spirit, etc.

I point you again to what I wrote earlier (2:26 pm yesterday 07-07-10) under the heading "Christians at the point of salvation are ALSO sealed with the Holy Spirit:".

And as I also wrote earlier,
Salvation is NOT a feeling, but IS rather knowledge. See my comment (at 2:29 pm yesterday 07-07-10) under the heading "In conclusion" where I reference 1 John 5:10-13 "that ye may know that ye have eternal life". You can't have eternal life one minute, and then lose it the next.

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